Talk:Occultism in Nazism

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A fact from Occultism in Nazism appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 20 July 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Germanenorden had an early influence on mysticism in Nazi Germany?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/July.

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Not a very informative article

This article is mainly about the historiography of Nazi occultism but doesn't actually discuss it. It hardly provides any actual details on things like Wewelsburg, the Anenherbe, the influence of folkisch mysticism on Nazi ideology, the Thule Society etc. Rather the article seems to be more interested in discrediting the idea that Hitler was a sorcerer with real magical powers or something, which is kind of silly given that its rather obvious that he didn't have magical powers. I mean, sure, Hitler didn't actually commune with the dark forces and the Nazi party wasn't secretly run by shadowy mystical cults but he and many other Nazis still believed in various occult ideas to varying degrees but this article doesn't mention any of that. 123.243.215.92 (talk) 14:30, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is also an article called Nazi Esotericism, perhaps a merge would help? 142.134.74.139 (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A merge with Nazi Esotericism wouldn't be right, since that page is now Esoteric Nazism and focuses specifically on modern esotericist interpretations of Nazi ideology. This page does need some serious work - the focus is misdirected IMO and makes it really unclear whether we're talking about conspiracy theories alleging secret control of the Nazi party or about actual crossover between occultist belief systems and Nazism in Nazi Germany. I would argue that we should focus on the latter. I made some attempts at cleaning up the first section, but there's a lot more to be done, and the lead should be rewritten entirely. --AvrahamHerschel (talk) 19:43, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The best source I've found on the topic is Hitler's Monsters but Erich Kurlander (available in book and audiobook form) which unlike many other books and documentaries takes a strictly academic perspective. I only have it in audiobook form, making citing it a bit difficult, but for those that want to put in the work it stands far above all I've yet found and well worth the time of any serious historian. A quick glance at his wiki should be enough to prove his qualifications. Full title and ISDN: Hitler's Monsters: A Supernatural History of the Third Reich. Yale University Press, New Haven, 2017. ISBN 9780300189452 - Aeonfluxus 11:01, 15 May 2024 (GMT-4)

Before the NSDAP was a political party, it was an occult organization

I am shocked that there is NO mention in this article of the Thule Society, which mutated into the Nazi Party. The fact that this organization, along with Dietrich Eckhart (the man who mentored Hitler and gave him his education in politics, without which his rise to power would never have been possible) are never even mentioned greatly detracts from this article's credibility and usefulness. This is an embarrassing omission that should be corrected ASAP. Thanks! :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:9C81:5D00:0:0:0:44FE (talk • contribs)

WP:RS ? - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article actually has two mentions of the Thule society and an external link, so I'm not sure what your complaint is about. - - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alleister Crowley: a modernist freemason, but also linked to the third reich?!

Since when are masons, being mostly known as a holocaust victim group, now weirdly also involved in the third reich?!

Also, just as weird is even Puzzle and Dragons Z. It involves the polytheism from racial discriminators, even humanists, but also promasonic elements such as nondogmatic and nonenigmatic (you are beating Enigma and Dogma into absolute oblivion without actual included replayability). Even a Crowley named monster is in the game ...

See, it is so weird to play games like this one nowadays. --82.207.238.113 (talk) 02:06, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More

Hitler and Paganism 2A02:8109:1040:29C0:7D77:D556:9095:8CD0 (talk) 05:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Esoteric Nazism

I don't see how the topics are substantially different. I'd suggest merging the Esoteric Nazism here (18 vs 9 interwikis), and also renaming this article (the term "Occultism in Nazism" does not exist in GS, "Esoteric Nazism" does and could be retained after merge but Nazism and the Occult might be better (not sure if occult should be capitalized?). Such a title would be more clear, and it is the same as of this academic artiocle. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Check the article history, it was split by consensus. This article is intended to cover occult beliefs in historical Nazism, and it was decided that it should not cover post-war Esoteric Neo-Nazism, which is the focus of Esoteric Nazism. I've removed the merge tag, moved the article to Esoteric Neo-Nazism, and added hatnotes. The topics are indeed substantially different. Skyerise (talk) 11:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Skyerise While I appreciate your explanation, I don't think you should remove the merge proposal - I may well agree with you, but a discussion like this should be left visible for several month to ensure there is consensus not to merge. I'd kindly ask you to restore the merge notice and revisit this in few month, and then, if consensus leans your way, the merge notices can be removed. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:30, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome to restore them, but I am not going to restore them myself, because I don't believe the articles should be merged. Before a merge discussion is placed, an editor should check the archives for split discussions, which you failed to do. They should also read the entirety of both articles before deciding they cover the "same topic". The topics are clearly different, and while it is your right to add the tags again to force a discussion, it isn't within your rights to demand that I do so. Merge discussions are rarely allowed to go more than a month, and there is no rule against removing a misguided merge proposal by an editor who happens to know that the articles are intentionally separate due to a consensus not to coatrack related yet distinct topics in a single article. Skyerise (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Skyerise I checked that discussion and it represents a consensus of only two editors, with no indication there was any notification of proposed split in article itself. I stand by my believe that by removing the merge notice you are not following best practices; per Wikipedia:Merging. You explicitly did not follow the procedures outlined at Wikipedia:Merging#Step_4:_Close_the_merge_discussion_and_determine_consensus, nor did you wait the bare minimum (a week, but realistically, much more - I would wait however long it takes for at least 2-3 more folks to notice the discussion) for a consensus to emerge. Therefore I ask you to follow the merge guidelines and at least restore the templates that you improperly removed (no, I am not "demanding" that, but keep in mind that violating Wikipedia policies can have negative consequences eventually). PS. To put it simply: you did not follow the proper merge close procedures, so please self-revert yourself. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure you must be right, but I don't respond to threats. However, I won't revert you if you restore them. You are being "demanding" when you won't simply do yourself what I've suggested you do. Adding a threat about "negative consequences" into what has been a civil discussion, seems to me to cross the line into WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. I've said go ahead and put them back if you like and that I won't remove them again. If you think someone is going to give me "negative consequences" when I've said that you should just go ahead, but instead you insist that I must make the edit that you want to make: well, that's an attitude that I simply don't understand; adding a threat makes it impossible for me to comply. I'm putting up no opposition here, so if you continue to make this a talk page battle rather than just restore the tags yourself, I won't respond further here. I hate pointless and unnecessary talk page theatrics. Skyerise (talk) 07:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]