Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics
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Are Wikipedia's mathematics articles targeted at professional mathematicians?
No, we target our articles at an appropriate audience. Usually this is an interested layman. However, this is not always possible. Some advanced topics require substantial mathematical background to understand. This is no different from other specialized fields such as law and medical science. If you believe that an article is too advanced, please leave a detailed comment on the article's talk page. If you understand the article and believe you can make it simpler, you are also welcome to improve it, in the framework of the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Why is it so difficult to learn mathematics from Wikipedia articles?
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a textbook. Wikipedia articles are not supposed to be pedagogic treatments of their topics. Readers who are interested in learning a subject should consult a textbook listed in the article's references. If the article does not have references, ask for some on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics. Wikipedia's sister projects Wikibooks which hosts textbooks, and Wikiversity which hosts collaborative learning projects, may be additional resources to consider. See also: Using Wikipedia for mathematics self-study Why are Wikipedia mathematics articles so abstract?
Abstraction is a fundamental part of mathematics. Even the concept of a number is an abstraction. Comprehensive articles may be forced to use abstract language because that language is the only language available to give a correct and thorough description of their topic. Because of this, some parts of some articles may not be accessible to readers without a lot of mathematical background. If you believe that an article is overly abstract, then please leave a detailed comment on the talk page. If you can provide a more down-to-earth exposition, then you are welcome to add that to the article. Why don't Wikipedia's mathematics articles define or link all of the terms they use?
Sometimes editors leave out definitions or links that they believe will distract the reader. If you believe that a mathematics article would be more clear with an additional definition or link, please add to the article. If you are not able to do so yourself, ask for assistance on the article's talk page. Why don't many mathematics articles start with a definition?
We try to make mathematics articles as accessible to the largest likely audience as possible. In order to achieve this, often an intuitive explanation of something precedes a rigorous definition. The first few paragraphs of an article (called the lead) are supposed to provide an accessible summary of the article appropriate to the target audience. Depending on the target audience, it may or may not be appropriate to include any formal details in the lead, and these are often put into a dedicated section of the article. If you believe that the article would benefit from having more formal details in the lead, please add them or discuss the matter on the article's talk page. Why don't mathematics articles include lists of prerequisites?
A well-written article should establish its context well enough that it does not need a separate list of prerequisites. Furthermore, directly addressing the reader breaks Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone. If you are unable to determine an article's context and prerequisites, please ask for help on the talk page. Why are Wikipedia's mathematics articles so hard to read?
We strive to make our articles comprehensive, technically correct and easy to read. Sometimes it is difficult to achieve all three. If you have trouble understanding an article, please post a specific question on the article's talk page. Why don't math pages rely more on helpful YouTube videos and media coverage of mathematical issues?
Mathematical content of YouTube videos is often unreliable (though some may be useful for pedagogical purposes rather than as references). Media reports are typically sensationalistic. This is why they are generally avoided. |
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Optimisation under uncertainty
[edit]I've noticed that we have a few articles related to it (Stochastic optimization, Robust optimization) but there is no article which gives a general overview of the topic. Do you think it would make sense to create it? Would it be better to describe methods like chance constraints programming in a that article or to add them to Stochastic optimization? Alaexis¿question? 16:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've created an article about chance constrained programming for a start, I'd be grateful if someone could review it. Alaexis¿question? 07:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Presently, it is too abstract to make sense to me. Please, add at least one simple example and show how it fits the abstract model. JRSpriggs (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback, I'll try to add something over the next few days. Alaexis¿question? 19:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Presently, it is too abstract to make sense to me. Please, add at least one simple example and show how it fits the abstract model. JRSpriggs (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Hi, I just went through the mathematical facts on the article 7 with a bit of a blowtorch and removed a lot of trivial, not well connected to the number 7, or inaccessible mathematical facts about the number. I might go through other articles like this but I wanted to first get feedback here. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:55, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good. A lot of our number articles have been accumulating a similar amount of cruft, thanks in part to the efforts of one editor in particular. One small critique: I would be inclined to restore the fact about 7 being the most likely roll for a pair of six sided dice. Tito Omburo (talk) 16:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely a good fact to restore. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 16:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's still there. XOR'easter (talk) 16:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- That looks like a good trim overall. I might quibble on the details later, but it seems mostly fine. XOR'easter (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- An edit removing that much material deserves a thorough review to ensure there is not any rescueable content that was deleted. Maybe we can even update the guidelines to specify what kind of facts are considered interesting enough to include and what is cruft, considering how much work there is to do on the number pages. @Dedhert.Jr asked about such a guideline in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Numbers#Interesting_properties. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 17:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I 100% agree, feel free to go in and add back (in a more clear and concise way) some of the facts deleted if there is a consensus to do so. Allan Nonymous (talk) 19:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I, for one, am happy to see cruft removed from our number articles. I was working on that for a while but kind of gave up after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/198 (number) (2nd nomination) last year. But although many of the listed mathematical properties in these articles are crufty and uninteresting, I think a bigger cause of cruft is the use of numbers as identifiers rather than for their numeric value (for instance as numbers of highways, bus lines, etc), which to my mind should go on separate disambiguation pages rather than on articles about the numbers themselves. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note: following the positive feedback here, I have gone through other number articles, especially (shudders) 744 (Number). Frankly, I think its fine time we write up a WP:NOTOEIS policy to prevent so many of these "xth number with y property" entries. Allan Nonymous (talk) 19:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is time for WP:NOTOEIS, though I don't have enough experience with number pages to know if this is actually necessary.
- The most obvious content for removal is of the form "number x is associated with number y, and number y has property a" on pages for number x. See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=744_%28number%29&diff=1238550872&oldid=1230509719 for an example. Even if both statements are valid on their own, the fact that number y has property a should still typically not be on the page for number x.
- Statements of the form "number x has property a" are, in my opinion, valid if and only if property a is sufficiently interesting, as are statements of the form "number x is the yth number with property a". It's not clear to me that mentioning that it is the yth is usually any more helpful than just saying "number x has property a", unless y is very small. For example, the page for 45 should probably say that 45 is a triangle number, but I can't convince myself that saying it is the 9th triangle number is any more helpful. On the other hand, maybe the page for 3 should say that 3 is the first non-even prime. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 20:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps a guideline might say that OEIS is a reliable source but it cannot be used to establish notability of a fact. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 20:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- My personal inclination is that a number appearing in an OEIS entry is only worth mentioning if the sequence is "nice", "core" (of central importance to some topic), or "hard" (which often means that it comes from an unsolved problem). Because the source is reliable but intentionally rather indiscriminate, we should focus our attention on the subset of it that is marked as more interesting than the rest. Or, in other words, we should follow the source when it comes to emphasis. XOR'easter (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- We might get almost the same effect by only mentioning properties or sequences that have bluelinked Wikipedia articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that sounds plausible. XOR'easter (talk) 20:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think OEIS needs to be treated with caution, essentially as a WP:PRIMARY source. Tito Omburo (talk) 20:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- We might get almost the same effect by only mentioning properties or sequences that have bluelinked Wikipedia articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- See the discussion now at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#WP:NOTOEIS. XOR'easter (talk) 21:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding this problem being related to OEIS, do we have to check again whether OEIS is questionably reliable? This was discussed when I was reviewing 69 (number) to become GA. Maybe, just maybe, just in case, some points of view can be included to support the new additional guidelines we have discussed right now. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- In my view, OEIS is entirely reliable; its edits go through a very strict hierarchy of multiple reviewers, much like a peer-reviewed journal. This process has led it to be much less error-prone than many other sources such as Wikipedia or (worse) MathWorld. What it does not provide is depth of coverage of individual numbers, such as would be needed for WP:GNG-based notability. And because the choice to include a sequence is WP:ROUTINE, it does not tell us much about the notability of individual sequences. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with this. XOR'easter (talk) 17:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think OEIS is reliable (though not a good indicator of notability). Mathwriter2718 (talk) 17:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- In my view, OEIS is entirely reliable; its edits go through a very strict hierarchy of multiple reviewers, much like a peer-reviewed journal. This process has led it to be much less error-prone than many other sources such as Wikipedia or (worse) MathWorld. What it does not provide is depth of coverage of individual numbers, such as would be needed for WP:GNG-based notability. And because the choice to include a sequence is WP:ROUTINE, it does not tell us much about the notability of individual sequences. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding this problem being related to OEIS, do we have to check again whether OEIS is questionably reliable? This was discussed when I was reviewing 69 (number) to become GA. Maybe, just maybe, just in case, some points of view can be included to support the new additional guidelines we have discussed right now. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- My personal inclination is that a number appearing in an OEIS entry is only worth mentioning if the sequence is "nice", "core" (of central importance to some topic), or "hard" (which often means that it comes from an unsolved problem). Because the source is reliable but intentionally rather indiscriminate, we should focus our attention on the subset of it that is marked as more interesting than the rest. Or, in other words, we should follow the source when it comes to emphasis. XOR'easter (talk) 20:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is a related discussion (also opened by @Allan Nonymous) at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Numbers#Help_remove_WP:CRUFT_on_number_articles!. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 15:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
The article 7 has a long but nowhere near complete section (previously titled "History", which I moved to 7 § Numeral shape) about the way the glyph is drawn in various countries and historical periods. This seems off topic or at least out of scope for an article about the number 7 per se. Should there be dedicated articles about individual numerals and the history of their visual representation in various written number systems? (While we are at it, {{Infobox number}} is an egregious waste of space.) –jacobolus (t) 03:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it makes sense to have a section about how 7 is drawn in the article for 7. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 10:53, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- If I may stick my nose in here: user @Allan Nonymous seems to be edit warring on a number of number pages. Reviewing the edit history for number one, I see the removal of all interesting and spicey mathematical facts, leaving behind a bland, tasteless and boring section on math. Whatever your views on cruft may be, the reality is that math is widely misunderstood in Western Culture, often taken to be "boring". Most of us here have the opposite experience: we know how interesting, exciting and even mind-boggling it is. To take the numbers articles, and remove everything that is mathematically interesting and exciting from them just reinforces the ugly stereotype that "math is boring". Let's not do this. 67.198.37.16 (talk) 19:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, foo. I now see that some of this is related to the histrionics from User:Radlrb, above, in the discussion about number 1234. While not a fan of histrionics, there are the unresolved questions of "what makes mathematics interesting?" and "how should enthusiastic compilations of facts about numbers be treated in Wikipedia?" For example, looking at the dozens (hundreds?) of articles on Lie algebra theory, we see that they are often extensive compendiums of factoids and trivia, but we have no problem with that content. We enjoy things like Jacques's titilating Tits buildings. But the trivia and factoids added & removed for 1234? Not so much, it seems. Part of me wants to encourage amateur enthusiasts. A different part of me says "take it to youtube if you think it's interesting." Beats me. 67.198.37.16 (talk) 19:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about Lie algebra pages, but I routinely find mathematical articles on Wikipedia that are very short on context, history, and basic explanation but have long lists of obscure trivial formulas etc. I for one would be very happy to see some of that cruft cleaned up and the space used for material that would be reasonably found in a well written survey paper. –jacobolus (t) 02:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Obscure factoids are fine if there exist reliable secondary sources. But for a lot of these number edits, the only source for some property is OEIS, and often it's a "second order" property that requires combining two OEIS entries, or counting the number of things in an OEIS entry. OEIS is a primary source, and this kind of original research is expressly forbidden (and specifically called out at WP:PRIMARY). Tito Omburo (talk) 13:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with you that the most pressing problem is not obscurity but OR. I think the introduction of the term "cruft" to these discussions might have lead us to focus in the wrong direction. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 14:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
To take the numbers articles, and remove everything that is mathematically interesting and exciting from them just reinforces the ugly stereotype that "math is boring". Let's not do this.
Yep. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm more than happy to go through anything at 1 which is deemed unsuitable but this was GA quality content. Polyamorph (talk) 23:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)- but this was GA quality content Meh! Still lack of sources. Demoted to C-class per both WP:QUALITY and this assessment project. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm talking about some of the prose I added, not the article as a whole. Polyamorph (talk) 04:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- but this was GA quality content Meh! Still lack of sources. Demoted to C-class per both WP:QUALITY and this assessment project. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, foo. I now see that some of this is related to the histrionics from User:Radlrb, above, in the discussion about number 1234. While not a fan of histrionics, there are the unresolved questions of "what makes mathematics interesting?" and "how should enthusiastic compilations of facts about numbers be treated in Wikipedia?" For example, looking at the dozens (hundreds?) of articles on Lie algebra theory, we see that they are often extensive compendiums of factoids and trivia, but we have no problem with that content. We enjoy things like Jacques's titilating Tits buildings. But the trivia and factoids added & removed for 1234? Not so much, it seems. Part of me wants to encourage amateur enthusiasts. A different part of me says "take it to youtube if you think it's interesting." Beats me. 67.198.37.16 (talk) 19:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- If I may stick my nose in here: user @Allan Nonymous seems to be edit warring on a number of number pages. Reviewing the edit history for number one, I see the removal of all interesting and spicey mathematical facts, leaving behind a bland, tasteless and boring section on math. Whatever your views on cruft may be, the reality is that math is widely misunderstood in Western Culture, often taken to be "boring". Most of us here have the opposite experience: we know how interesting, exciting and even mind-boggling it is. To take the numbers articles, and remove everything that is mathematically interesting and exciting from them just reinforces the ugly stereotype that "math is boring". Let's not do this. 67.198.37.16 (talk) 19:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Apparently there were some kind of puzzles or codes in the recently released Book of Bill (related to the childrens' TV cartoon Gravity Falls) whose answers included "Triangle" and "Eye of Providence", with the result that those pages have seen massive view spikes. Triangle went from a norm of about 800–900 views per day up to 500,000 views yesterday, and possibly more today.
If anyone wants to have improvements to a mathematical page widely seen, Triangle could use some love.
(I added {{talk page header}} to Talk:Triangle hoping it would forestall some of the graffiti being directed there. Are there other good ways to deal with giant traffic spikes like this?) –jacobolus (t) 22:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jacobolus Triangle was used to be FA. If anyone wants to improve, especially to revive it, I think I can help, but I need a lot of work. Some advices or comments may be required. Whether the goal is to become GA or FA, that implies the article is suitably referenced and on-topic. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 00:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest I don't care much about GA or FA, but it would be nice if the article were better sourced and more complete. –jacobolus (t) 01:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. I have made it on my sandbox, and the progress is on the way. For someone who would like to give comments or advice for improvement only, ask me on my talk page. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 03:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest I don't care much about GA or FA, but it would be nice if the article were better sourced and more complete. –jacobolus (t) 01:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
I have some problems while expanding the article. In the case of non-planar triangles, I found out that there are other triangles as in hyperbolic triangle and spherical triangle. However, I also found out that hyperbolic triangles can be constructed by a so-called Thurston triangle [1]. It also contains the area of a hyperbolic triangle by using Gauss–Bonnet theorem, but according to which it is a geodesic triangle. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 11:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's unfortunate that we don't yet have an article spherical triangle, and that spherical trigonometry and spherical geometry are so incomplete. These and the many related topics which are currently red links or redirects are on my long-term todo list, but fixing even a few of them properly is a large daunting job and it's hard to get started. I'd eventually like to make a substantial number of diagrams similar to those at Lexell's theorem, but each one takes at least an hour of fiddling, sometimes several. Anyhow, both spherical triangles and hyperbolic triangles are types of geodesic triangles, with edges that are geodesics of their respective spaces.
- What your linked article calls the "Thurston model" of hyperbolic space is a discrete (infinite) polyhedron analogous to the regular icosahedron as a model of a sphere. The vertices are those of the order-7 triangular tiling; if you wanted you could put them all on one branch of a 2-sheet hyperboloid in 3-dimensional Minkowski space of signature (2, 1), and then the flat faces would be space-like triangles in the ambient Minkowski space. You could project from the hyperbolic plane onto those triangles, e.g. using the Gnomonic projection, or you can draw shapes directly in the space of the polyhedron. You could do something similar with any other kind of polyhedron. I don't think the article triangle needs to spend much if any time discussing triangles drawn the surfaces of polyhedra. –jacobolus (t) 18:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Another problem: Do you think the conditions about the importance of similarity and congruence sections should be trimmed away? Not something beneficially useful including the article on triangles in general; HL and HA theorem may be included in Right triangle instead. The same reason for the similarity of triangles via trigonometric functions. However, one exception that I include is its relation with trigonometric function, defining their functions as a ratio between both sides in a right triangle, and then including the law of sines and cosines as well. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Another problem: The article Triangulation (geometry) is somewhat short and unsourced in some areas. Do you think this article should be expanded, or rather redirected to the section of the article Triangle? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Triangulation (geometry) should definitely be its own article, and does not make sense to redirect. But feel free to dramatically expand it. It's a large topic about which whole books have been written. –jacobolus (t) 16:03, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Ahh, I think something is missing here. Can somebody remind me, or give me more ideas to expand more in my sandbox? I could think of removing "triangles in construction" as in the Flatiron Building and truss; most of these topics are supposed to be triangular prism and isosceles triangle, respectively. The same reason for calculating the median, circumscribed and inscribed triangles, and many more, since they do have their own articles. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Triangles in construction" isn't the best section title or scope, but there should definitely be at least a section about how triangles are the only polygon which is rigid when the side lengths are fixed but the sides can rotate independently about the vertices; this is why triangles are the fundamental shape used in a truss, explains why a 4-bar linkage is the most basic type (a "3-bar linkage" can't move), is a reason triangulation works in surveying, and so on.
- There should probably separately be a discussion of the use of triangles as common decorative elements etc. –jacobolus (t) 16:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Triangles are definitely not the unique basis for rigid linkages; see Laman graph. The utility graph is I think the simplest triangle-free rigid graph (in 2d). —David Eppstein (talk) 18:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's an interesting subject well worth discussing in Laman graph or structural rigidity, but the utilities graph isn't a polygon, and isn't really relevant to the point that the triangle's rigidity is the reason for many of its practical applications. Edit: Maybe Triangle § Rigidity would be a good top-level heading for Triangle. –jacobolus (t) 19:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jacobolus. Okay. I would probably do more research and apply them to my sandbox. One problem here is I still cannot find the sources about the rigidity of a triangle and its tessellation with a hexagon. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:55, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's an interesting subject well worth discussing in Laman graph or structural rigidity, but the utilities graph isn't a polygon, and isn't really relevant to the point that the triangle's rigidity is the reason for many of its practical applications. Edit: Maybe Triangle § Rigidity would be a good top-level heading for Triangle. –jacobolus (t) 19:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Triangles are definitely not the unique basis for rigid linkages; see Laman graph. The utility graph is I think the simplest triangle-free rigid graph (in 2d). —David Eppstein (talk) 18:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Completion
[edit]@jacobolus. The article is done for refactoring and rewriting. But some sources may needed to complete the article. Do you have any comments about something is missing or superfluous in the article? Let me know. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 07:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting in the time and energy. XOR'easter (talk) 21:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've made a smattering of edits to fix small prose matters and fill in some citations. It's still a little under-referenced, so anyone else who'd like to jump in and work on that should feel more than welcome. XOR'easter (talk) 23:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate your work, as well as the compliments. Still have problems, however, especially with the sources of Heath's book The Thirteen Books. The first book's Definition 20 describes the isosceles triangle definition according to Euclid, but I think this is a mismatch with the given page in Isosceles triangle, or it is hidden in the Greek writings. Pinging @David Eppstein for further explanation. There is a similar reason for Heath's footnotes being more numerous. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm misreading your comment: do you mean there is a mismatch in Euclid's definition, or just with the formatting of the reference? If the former, you should read the Usiskin & Griffin source from both articles. There are two different and incompatible ways of classifying shapes:
- In exclusive classification, all cases must be disjoint: each shape can have only one type
- In inclusive classification, special cases are subsets of more general cases
- As our isosceles triangle article states, Euclid uses an exclusive classification, in which isosceles triangles must have exactly two equal sides and in which equilateral triangles are not isosceles. Many other sources use an inclusive classification in which equilateral triangles are special cases of isosceles triangles. But both remain in use.
- Using an inclusive classification and allowing classes to be subsets of each other can be more flexible and avoids unnecessary case analysis. For instance, when Euclid proves a theorem about isosceles triangles, he would have to prove the same theorem again for equilateral triangles, because the givens from the first theorem would not match the definition needed for the second theorem. And when does a special case become separate from the general case? Maybe isosceles right triangles aren't isosceles triangles, because they are in a different special case class?
- The same issue comes up even more strongly for quadrilaterals, where one may reasonably ask whether parallelograms are trapezoids, whether rectangles or rhombi are parallelograms, and whether squares are rectangles or rhombi. And then one must reconcile this classification with cyclic quadrilaterals, tangential quadrilaterals, orthodiagonal quadrilaterals, kites, bicyclic quadrilaterals, etc. In the isosceles triangle case, either definition was easy enough to write, but for many of these other cases of quadrilaterals, the inclusive definitions are easy to write (it's a quadrilateral for which a specific constraint is true) and the exclusive definitions are much messier (the constraint is true but also some other constraints that would cause it to be a more specific special case are all false).
- Most of the time we use inclusive classification in our Wikipedia articles, but this distinction should be explained. And it's important that this choice be made in a principled way rather than randomly and inconsistently from one article to another because of the sources you happened to read when you were working on the article.
- If I'm misinterpreting and this was all purely about page numbers then sorry for the off-topic rant. The important part of the Euclid reference is "Book 1, definition 20". —David Eppstein (talk) 04:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein What I meant is in the article Isosceles triangle, you cited Euclid's definition on page 187 [Heath (1956), p. 187, Definition 20.] But I cannot find that definition on that page. What I meant about Greek letters is, even though I found the "Definition 20" on a different page, I will never find that the definition, and it is possibly written in Greek language. This is why I leave this to you since you are the nominator of that GA. and I have no clue about the article's expansion back of the day. Anyway, thank you for your explanation above. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:12, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can check my copy the next time I'm in the office. Are you sure you're looking at Vol.1 of the Dover three-volume edition? There are a lot of different reprints of Heath's translation. If you're reading it in Greek then I think you have a different one; I would have referred to an English translation. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein I have searched it on Heath's citation, which I pointed out in the recent replies. As far as I'm concerned, the page describes the Greek language as the definition and English is probably the further explanation and comments. Look at the page 292 that I linked here [2]. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Heath's citation" is ambiguous. There are many reprints of Heath's translation of Euclid. Again, are you sure you're looking at Vol.1 of the Dover three-volume edition? The link you give is to Book 7 in Vol.2, not to Book 1 in Vol.1. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein Sorry but that source is already linked as a reference or works cited in the Isosceles triangle, see the references:
- Heath, Thomas L. (1956) [1925]. The Thirteen Books of Euclid's Elements. Vol. 1 (2nd ed.). New York: Dover Publications. ISBN 0-486-60088-2.
- Dedhert.Jr (talk) 10:16, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Apparently the incorrect link is the fault of User:InternetArchiveBot: [3]. Reported: T372925. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ideally we should be citing the Cambridge University Press 2nd edition from 1926, which was later reprinted by Dover, and including a link to a scan of the appropriate page with every reference. Unfortunately the internet archive only has a scan of volume 3, and many of their scans of dover reprints are blocked or need to be "checked out" (though they shouldn't be, since the copyright is still 1926, and expired). HathiTrust has a scan of vol 2 (and vol. 3). –jacobolus (t) 15:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- What we need in this case is vol.1. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is this it?
Of trilateral figures, an equilateral triangle is that which has its three sides equal, an isosceles triangle that which has two of its sides alone equal, and a scalene triangle that which has its three sides unequal.
XOR'easter (talk) 17:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)- Yes. And the page number matches, answering Dedhert.Jr's question. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is this it?
- What we need in this case is vol.1. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein Sorry but that source is already linked as a reference or works cited in the Isosceles triangle, see the references:
- "Heath's citation" is ambiguous. There are many reprints of Heath's translation of Euclid. Again, are you sure you're looking at Vol.1 of the Dover three-volume edition? The link you give is to Book 7 in Vol.2, not to Book 1 in Vol.1. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:09, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein I have searched it on Heath's citation, which I pointed out in the recent replies. As far as I'm concerned, the page describes the Greek language as the definition and English is probably the further explanation and comments. Look at the page 292 that I linked here [2]. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can check my copy the next time I'm in the office. Are you sure you're looking at Vol.1 of the Dover three-volume edition? There are a lot of different reprints of Heath's translation. If you're reading it in Greek then I think you have a different one; I would have referred to an English translation. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @David Eppstein What I meant is in the article Isosceles triangle, you cited Euclid's definition on page 187 [Heath (1956), p. 187, Definition 20.] But I cannot find that definition on that page. What I meant about Greek letters is, even though I found the "Definition 20" on a different page, I will never find that the definition, and it is possibly written in Greek language. This is why I leave this to you since you are the nominator of that GA. and I have no clue about the article's expansion back of the day. Anyway, thank you for your explanation above. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:12, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm misreading your comment: do you mean there is a mismatch in Euclid's definition, or just with the formatting of the reference? If the former, you should read the Usiskin & Griffin source from both articles. There are two different and incompatible ways of classifying shapes:
- I appreciate your work, as well as the compliments. Still have problems, however, especially with the sources of Heath's book The Thirteen Books. The first book's Definition 20 describes the isosceles triangle definition according to Euclid, but I think this is a mismatch with the given page in Isosceles triangle, or it is hidden in the Greek writings. Pinging @David Eppstein for further explanation. There is a similar reason for Heath's footnotes being more numerous. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Well, the article is down to a handful of uncited statements. I'm not sure that all of them need to be kept in the text. I can try to scrape together the time to work on it more, but maybe someone else would rather take a swing at it. XOR'easter (talk) 18:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Template:Equation in andriod dark mode
[edit]A couple of users complain that equations in boxes are not viewable on Android in dark mode. The highlighting of the box is a nice-to-have. Is there any workaround short of removing the template? Johnjbarton (talk) 14:55, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, turns out the template is "Equation box 1" (ugh) and there are some hints about dark mode issues. Johnjbarton (talk) 15:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I partly fixed this issue, but it turns out this template is mainly used in physics articles. Johnjbarton (talk) 18:10, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Another problem is {{Dynkin}}. Tito Omburo (talk) 16:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Does this project cover numeral systems?
[edit]I was having a similar discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numbers, but they didn’t have a clear answer yet –it would be great if someone could make it’s more clear. Legendarycool (talk) 22:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you run into conflict or some other difficulty in articles about numeral systems, you can certainly bring discussion here for more eyes. Is there something specific you are interested in / working on? –jacobolus (t) 00:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- No nothing at the moment, just for future reference. Legendarycool (talk) 02:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Participants of this member are allowed to give opinions on whether the article List of Johnson solids is submitted on a given date. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 05:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Hello WikiProject Mathematics. Recently I noticed that the article Skolem's paradox had very few inline citations, so I decided to fix the refs and tweak some things. Now I've been working on it enough that I'd like to take it to GA review, but I would really appreciate if anyone could read through it first, especially someone with the knowledge to verify the "The result and its implications" section. I think that the first "formal" explanation of the paradox in that section is a bit weak. Thanks, Pagliaccious (talk) 01:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Hilbert system#Requested move 20 August 2024
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/28/Information.svg/30px-Information.svg.png)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Hilbert system#Requested move 20 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 21:54, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Uncited and vague statement at Trigonometric functions
[edit]This line in Trigonometric functions is tagged for temporal vagueness and needing a reference: The modern trend in mathematics is to build geometry from calculus rather than the converse.
Is this remark actually true, and if so, is it worth saying in that spot? It seems to me that talking of a singular "trend" in mathematics is likely to be unsupportable. If one is doing coordinate geometry, one might found it upon properties of the real numbers as developed in real analysis, which is the sophisticated version of/groundwork for/elective taken after calculus. But to a reader for whom geometry is a prereq to calculus, this statement is probably rather puzzling. XOR'easter (talk) 23:21, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- This seems more or less right, but may be unnecessary here, and could be significantly elaborated. Our description both here and at trigonometry and history of trigonometry is extremely incomplete. As for when this occurred, as concerns trigonometry per se this approach more or less originates with Euler, but picked up steam with Fourier series and then efforts to make them more rigorous in the 19th century, and by studies of elliptic functions, &c. With respect to geometry more generally, I'd also say this is a trend, with pure mathematicians treating geometry as founded in analysis (and its offshoots of topology and set theory), more and more over time starting in the 18th century but since the 20th century almost completely. You could extend this general trend earlier if comparing the gradual substitution of coordinates and analytic geometry in preference to Greek definitions and "synthetic" methods. –jacobolus (t) 00:11, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've given it a go, but I think the article needs some organizing. Also, there is no mention of asymptotes. Tito Omburo (talk) 01:14, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the gesture toward G. H. Hardy is any more helpful to readers than the previous vague handwave about trends away from geometry. I'd just cut those prefatory sentences and discuss the broader context more thoroughly in the history section and in history of trigonometry.
- This and related articles could definitely use organizing. There could also be separate articles about tangent (trigonometry) and secant (trigonometry) to go along with sine and cosine, which would leave more room for discussing more specific history, applications, etc. –jacobolus (t) 05:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- A problem with the previous vagueness is that it was an unreferenced point of view. Also, the assertion that there are "two ways" to define the trigonometric functions was flat out wrong. Hardy lists four, not including the first one described in the article (which I found in Bartle and Sherbert). Tito Omburo (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- A minor point: I don't understand why there's so much name-dropping/attribution in your addition. One can write "there is a problem with geometry as a definition.[ref: hardy] there are mutliple modern approaches to fix this: (1)(2)(3)(4).[refs:hardy, bartle-sherbert]" What is added by announcing at the beginning of these sentences that the references at the end of the sentence are written by Hardy and by Bartle--Sherbert? --JBL (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not married to the wording, but it seems like this is the basic content and sources that should be there. Tito Omburo (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- A minor point: I don't understand why there's so much name-dropping/attribution in your addition. One can write "there is a problem with geometry as a definition.[ref: hardy] there are mutliple modern approaches to fix this: (1)(2)(3)(4).[refs:hardy, bartle-sherbert]" What is added by announcing at the beginning of these sentences that the references at the end of the sentence are written by Hardy and by Bartle--Sherbert? --JBL (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- A problem with the previous vagueness is that it was an unreferenced point of view. Also, the assertion that there are "two ways" to define the trigonometric functions was flat out wrong. Hardy lists four, not including the first one described in the article (which I found in Bartle and Sherbert). Tito Omburo (talk) 09:58, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- This discussion might better be moved to talk:trigonometric functions, but @Tito Omburo you should give a source for "amplitude function", "method of amplitudes", etc. These are extremely rare names I have never heard of after spending many hundreds of hours researching the specific topic of the trigonometric half-tangent, and can't find any mention of in a google scholar search. –jacobolus (t) 21:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's just the amplitude of , but I'll get rid of the neologism. I thought I had seen this in Bourbaki's real variables, but now it seems I was mistaken. Tito Omburo (talk) 22:26, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've given it a go, but I think the article needs some organizing. Also, there is no mention of asymptotes. Tito Omburo (talk) 01:14, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Build geometry from calculus"? What is being referred to here? Michael Hardy (talk) 02:35, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'd say that
The modern trend in mathematics is to build Euclidean geometry from calculus rather than the converse.
is generally true, but that the more general statement is false. I'm having trouble coming up with a replacement that is both accurate and concise enough to be in the lead. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:12, 22 August 2024 (UTC) - This statement is basically true from the perspective of a differential geometer, but not from the perspective of an algebraic geometer. I think this statement should be expanded upon or removed because it is just way too vague to be helpful. In the context of trig, it might be more helpful to say that nowadays people define trig functions using calculus and then define angles using trig functions. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 13:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Convex polyhedron
[edit]The article Convex polyhedron is currently under the article's redirection Convex polytope. Our articles have several type of convex polyhedrons: Platonic solid, Archimedean solid, Catalan solid, deltahedron, Johnson solid, and many more. The article convex polyhedron should have redirected into Polyhedron#Convex polyhedra. It seems convex polytope describes the generalization concept. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 09:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'll do this change, since readers interested in convex polyhedra need not know dimensions higher than 3. D.Lazard (talk) 09:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
The redirect Multiplicity of a restricted root has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 21 § Multiplicity of a restricted root until a consensus is reached. 136.152.209.125 (talk) 04:24, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Page move to Piecewise function
[edit]After some discussion at Talk:Piecewise_function#Requested_move_20_July_2024, the page Piecewise was moved to Piecewise function. I still consider this decision nonsensical, and the new title highly confusing. For this reason, I'd like to draw your attention to the move. If nobody else has a problem with it, I'll shut up. - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
In addition, a separate(!) DAB page Piecewise property has been created, which links most of its entries (like "Piecewise continuous") back to Piecewise function, where they are explained more or less satisfactorily. According to Piecewise_function#See_also, "Piecewise property" is a generalization of "Piecewise function"! - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- According to WP:NOUN the title should be a noun. For example, instead of "French", articles are titled "French language" or "French people". — Rgdboer (talk) 20:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Or "piecewise property". The problem with "piecewise function" is not grammatical; it is that many of the things defined piecewise are not exactly functions. See e.g. piecewise linear manifold. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'd move Piecewise property to Piecewise, which if someone wants could be upgraded to a "broad-concept article", and leave a separate article at piecewise function, which should ideally contain quite a bit more discussion of piecewise polynomial "splines", piecewise parametric curves as used in CAD/CAM, and so on. –jacobolus (t) –jacobolus (t) 21:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- My point is that there is no such thing as a piecewise function. Every function can be defined using
if . then . else . endif
(linearizing 2dim math terminology), and every function can be defined without it. This is stated correctly in the 2nd lead sentence. In order to subsume also e.g. piecewise linear manifold, what about "Piecewise definition"? - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- My point is that there is no such thing as a piecewise function. Every function can be defined using
- I'd move Piecewise property to Piecewise, which if someone wants could be upgraded to a "broad-concept article", and leave a separate article at piecewise function, which should ideally contain quite a bit more discussion of piecewise polynomial "splines", piecewise parametric curves as used in CAD/CAM, and so on. –jacobolus (t) –jacobolus (t) 21:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Or "piecewise property". The problem with "piecewise function" is not grammatical; it is that many of the things defined piecewise are not exactly functions. See e.g. piecewise linear manifold. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)