Talk:Waiting staff

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Untitled

Adopted orphan redirects for searching: Waitress

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I've rewritten this completely, because I think that this is because of some confusion, ie. waiters' mathematics, from linking from Infinite Improbability Drive. Dysprosia 09:05, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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I've rewritten the drivel to make it a little more palitable. Do we really want this here? SGBailey 16:08, 2003 Sep 3 (UTC)

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We possibly need a history section. What is the origin of the term. And in particular who made up the invented word "waitstaff", and who actually uses this PC travesty in practise.124.197.15.138 (talk) 21:14, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

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From the article:

"[...] Depending on the type of restaurant, this may involve other uncommon duties, such as a Western-themed restaurant may require waiters and waitresses to line dance." Ah, and to yodel in an Alpine inn, to perform a belly dance in an Oriental café, and to move like a mermaid in a seafood restaurant?

In other words, isn't that statement a bit far-fetched? <KF> 01:57, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It was poorly constructed, and it's appropriately gone, but it's entirely accurate. I can attest to [1] as one example. VermillionBird 22:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

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"Many cultures in the region (East Asia) believe that leaving a tip implies that the waiter is not being paid enough by his or her employer."

Unless this occupation is one of the highest paid jobs in this region, I don't see why leaving a tip would be a problem. NorthernThunder 16:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

For the same reason American's think the French are rude just because they don't SMILE NON-STOP FOR NO REAL REASON :-D. Different cultures have different viewpoints. Bihal 04:53, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Waitron???

Out of interest, why is the title of the article "Waitron"? While I'm all in favour of gender-neutral language, I'm also in favour of dialect-neutral language. "Waitron" is a term confined to the US, first attested in 1985 in a gender-neutral context (before this it is only attested as a derogatory name for waiting staff, "contemptuously regarding waiting at tables as a mindless, robotic activity", as the OED says.

Might I suggest a slightly-more recognisable title as "waiting staff", and replacing the over-use of the obscure-to-non-Americans term "waitron" with some kind of gender-neutral circumlocution involving "waiting staff"? Should there be no objections, I will move the article to something which is neutral as regards usage as well as gender. Dewrad 17:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree with you. "Wait staff" perhaps? I've only ever heard Waitron used in the U.S. as something of a joke, and more of a paraody of gender neutral language than anything. Dina 17:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

"Waitron" is obscure even in the U.S., and I think would be unfamiliar to most of the population, though I have heard it used seriously. "Waiting staff" seems favored in the UK, while "wait staff" or "waitstaff" seems favored in large former British colonies. To my midwestern U.S. ears, "waiting staff" is certainly understandable but sounds odd, while "waitstaff" or "wait staff" sound natural. I'm going to add "waitstaff" and "wait staff" to the article's lead sentence. Some google evidence for cultural preferences:

Google.com returns 0.4 million results for "waiting staff" (in quotes so it's a single phrase), 1.8 million for "wait staff," and 1.4 million for "waitstaff." Choosing "pages from the UK" on google.co.uk, the results are 194,000 for "waiting staff," 20,300 for "wait staff," and 10,100 for "waitstaff." (That 194,000 ostensibly includes the 0.4 million from google.com's general English-language results). Google.cn's "pages from Canada" returns 2,410 for "waiting staff," 45,700 for "wait staff" and 12,000 for "waitstaff." Google.com.au's "pages from Australia" returns 20,900 for "waiting staff," 41,100 for "wait staff," and 17,200 for "waitstaff." Google.com.in's "pages from India" returns 170 for "waiting staff," 2,980 for "wait staff," and 1,040 for "waitstaff." -Agyle 18:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I also added "waitperson" and "server" to the gender-neutral alternatives to "waiter" and "waitress." In the U.S., they both seem much more common than waitron. [This article] on tipping uses server in that context, a google for "restaurant server" (to distinguish from other meanings of "server") returns 68,300 results, and Roget's thesaurus uses waitperson for the main entry, server as the definition, and waiter and waitress as synonyms. -Agyle 23:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit late here, but if you are going to mention the term "Waitron" at all it should be in the context of negativity. It is a slang term used particularly by people who work in the "back-of-the-house" or kitchen to insult waitstaff whom can be looked down upon as the person who just brings the food from the kitchen to the table and brings back the cleared plates. Hence the "tron" denoting robotic movement.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 00:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The etymology of waitron is unclear, and it's not listed as slang in dictionaries. Random House, which included it in a 1991 dictionary, suggests it's analogous to patron, while Mirriam-Webster suggests it's a "blend of waiter or waitress and -tron (suggesting the machinelike impersonality of such work), later (perhaps influenced by neutron) taken as a gender-neutral term." I'm sure it's used negatively (the kitchen could say "waitperson" snidely for a negative connotation), but that doesn't seem to have reached enough significance that dictionary writers note the negative connotation. Since they're the reliable sources for this, and they just say it's a gender-neutral term meaning waiter or waitress, I think that's what should be included here. -Agyle 01:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A Google search for "Waitron derogatory", brings up quite a few inferences to the "derogatory" nature of the phrase. I usually hate using websites for references as most of my work is very academic, but honestly no one from Random House, or Mirriam-Webster has worked in the hospitality industry.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 23:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I repeated the search, and most entries just happened to have both words. Urban Diner, for example, is saying that door whore (a hostess) or floordick (restaurant manager or floor supervisor) are derogatory, while it simply defines waitron as a gender-neutral term for waiter/waitress. And there are 144 results, compared with 112,000 for "chef" and "derogatory", to illustrate the point. ;-) Some discussion sites do mention the negative connotation, as does this discussion, but Wikipedia:Citing sources requires a reliable source. The dictionaries cited are considered reliable. They are inevitably behind the times on evolving language, and so this article may be similarly behind the times on this point, but without a reliable source saying the term is sometimes or often used in a derogatory or humorous way, I don't think those are appropriate observations for this article. I'm sure you're right that it is sometimes used negatively, perhaps often in the industry, but a source is still needed. -Agyle 00:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I decided to delete "or the Americanism "waitron", which was coined in the 1980s.[4]", as no one uses that word. I bet most people don't even know what it means! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.227.197.191 (talk) 06:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I've restored it, as it is a proper word, properly sourced, and a redirect target (searching for waitron brings you to this page). If "people don't even know what it means", they can come to Wikipedia and find out, that's what an encyclopedia is for. --CliffC (talk) 16:22, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Manifesto

The Wilfred Gowers-Round Manifesto should be removed, it has no relevance to waiting tables today and it is representative of one person's views on how the job should be performed. As a waiter, I know that table service differs according to type of restaurant and region. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nativetexan1984 (talk • contribs) 03:22, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

Australian tipping

I don't know where the author got their impression that it is not customary to tip in Australia. As someone working as a waiter I can vouch for the fact that the majority of customers tip. It is more a case of tipping being the norm and not tipping being an accepted rebuke from a customer who may think that the service was not up to scratch. Not recieving a tip is an insult to a waiter's standards of service in Australia - but it would be very rare for an Austalian waiter to demand to know a customer's reasons for not tipping.

Tipping, whilst appreciated, is not usually expected by taxi drivers or bartenders in Australia, although at high-end bars you sometimes recieve your change on a plate.

Not every eatery expects tips, you don't tip at McDonalds for instance. Although a good rule of thumb is that if a restaurant is formal enough to issue your bill to you at your table instead of you having to go to a counter to pay directly, then a tip of around 10% is customary for solid, if unremarkable, service. (If the majority of people pay at their tables, anticipating the bill and paying at the counter does not mitigate the expectancy of a tip).

Lofnazareth 19:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

A 2005 Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) article on tipping said that in Australia and New Zealand, "Tips are not expected but are appreciated, especially in the 10 per cent range." That sounds a bit different than your view, but not outright contradictory. The Wikipedia article on tipping, which cites no sources in this regard and I presume is wrong/obsolete, says tipping is "very rare" in Australia, and "frowned upon" in New Zealand. I think this article should mention that tipping customs vary greatly, maybe provide some typical range and the more extreme ends (e.g. illegal in parts of China, expected before service in Russia, according to SMH), but defer the country-by-country details to the tip article. -Agyle 20:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Unification of the term

The current 2008-01-06T17:18:37 version uses terms inconsistently as shown below:

- Waiting staff can also be employed in (mainly large) private households, but there such specialisation is rarer with the general domestic staff performing the function of waiting staff.

- Many waiters and waitresses are required by their employers to wear a uniform.

- In the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, most other Western countries and the Middle East, it is customary for customers to pay tip to a server after a meal.

- Also called a gratuity, a "service charge" will be automatically applied, e.g. for large tables, parties of 4 or more, or other situations where the restaurant management imposes this to ensure that the waitstaff working in such situations earn their usual tip income.

Could you unify them? I prefer server because it's gender-neutral and not collective like waiting staff or waitstaff, but I don't know whether the term is used outside of the U.S. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have unified them using server, although the current article name is waiting staff. The latter doesn't fit well in the sentence "it is customary for customers to pay tip to a server after a meal." Please use another term if you don't like it. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

newspeak

Resolved

"Some people prefer to use newspeak, using waiter indiscriminately for males and females..."

If it really is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak that is intended, please make it a link.

In the (far more probable) case the term is merely used instead of "Some people prefer to be politically correct, using waiter..." then rewrite the section to avoid using an unintended word.

85.227.226.235 (talk) 14:56, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted it to gender-neutral language. - TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 16:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Excellent!85.227.226.235 (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Sentence is unclear

"The Tax Free Tips Act of 2007 would exempt tips from federal income and payroll taxes."

I think this sentence refers to America, but the sentence is unclear. Does anyone have a citation for this, and what it applies to? Lord of Light (talk) 15:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

When that text was added it had a bit more context [2], but was cut down to the current form due to the the language used. Given that it seems to refer to an unpassed bill (that may never get passed) and is not really relevant to the surrounding content, I've removed the text. --James (talk) 12:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Tipping in the UK?

I live in the United Kingdom, I do not tip regularly, nor does anyone I know I do not believe tipping is customary 94.2.150.254 (talk) 19:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it is a campaign by British waiting staff to encourage unwitting Wikipedia readers to start leaving them money? Phytism (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree, this is what I thought when I read it. I live in the UK and very rarely tip waiters, this should be changed.151.230.133.20 (talk) 14:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Going overboard gender-neutral term "server"

One of Wikipedia's basic policies is not to use words that are unfamilar like "server" instead of the most common terms like "waiter" or "waitress". Changing the caption of a waitress at Wolfies in Miami Beach in 1973 to call her a "server" is carrying gender-neutrality efforts too far. She was never known as a "server". If we don't want rare older photos, nor language that makes sense with them, we should remove the images, not make the captions look ridiculous. We cannot change history. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:33, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree that "server" is inappropriate for a waitress in 1973. However, "server" is very common in 2020 in the US and to a lesser extent in the UK. --Macrakis (talk) 19:10, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello, One of the clear duties of a waitstaff is upselling the employers products. I attempted to prove this with 2 articles plus Wikipedia’s own inclusion of information about upselling and what it entails. I found a source but it was not accepted...

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/upselling-techniques-restaurants-20154.html

Also Wikipedia has a definition of upselling.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upselling

Upselling is a technique but it is also a duty required by employers to sell their products. Just as polishing silverware and mixing cocktails are techniques applied as duties or requirements to work as a part of a waitstaff.

(“ servers have a good knowledge of the wine list and can recommend food–wine pairings.” This is a technique to pair wines and it is also a duty.)

Selling is also a duty required by owners to sell their business and that duty goes to (guess who) the wait staff.

Other sources perhaps not accepted but nonetheless relevant

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/the-basics-of-up-selling-menu-items-2888423

https://yourbusiness.azcentral.com/suggestive-selling-techniques-restaurants-7157.html Winchester Butterbean (talk) 03:57, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Upselling

I don’t understand why upselling cannot be added as a duty when it is clear that this is what an employer requires of her waitstaff... To sell the product and have returned. Customers.. selling and upselling are duties Winchester Butterbean (talk) 04:01, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Can you provide reliable sources that show that this is considered a general duty of waitstaff, as opposed to just a sales technique that some restaurants use? Sure, some waitstaff may be expected to do this, but why should this be in the article? In my misspent youth I once had a meal in a somewhat sleazy establishment where the servers took turns getting up on stage and stripping. It was part of the waitstaffs' job there, but I certainly wouldn't add it to the article as a description of servers' duties. Or, for a less extreme but current example, how about establishments such as Hooters where servers are expected to wear tight, revealing clothing to titillate the customers? Again, part of the expected duties there, but not a general duty. Meters (talk) 05:53, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Hello,

“.Or, for a less extreme but current example“ that is funny.

Current editing is though the direction I was focusing on with the addition of “sales” to job duties since this is how restaurants “stay” in business. I had seen this as a job responsibility but not in Wikipedia.

So, upselling also known as “suggestive selling” begins with simply explaining the restaurant “specials”—but I digress.

Please forgive me, thought that a source which expounded on upselling would suffice as proof so forgive me-( I am navigating Wikipedia’s “source” restrictions)

Upselling is a part of a responsibility or duty of any server. I’ll start with some evidence from different websites and hopefully we can get the (wait staff) article “current”.

Under bullet-point #5 (if this is considered a reliable source) a responsibility and/or duty is upselling—-

https://www.talentlyft.com/en/resources/restaurant-server-job-description

Under bullet-point #6(if this is considered a reliable source) a “common server job responsibility” is upselling

https://upserve.com/restaurant-insider/duties-responsibilities-waitress/amp/

Under bullet-point #6 (if this is considered a reliable source) under “responsibilities” upselling is noted

https://resources.workable.com/waiter-or-waitress-job-description

So I hope this begins the friendly discussions and if these are not considered reliable sources I will continue to bring them forth. Let me know what editors think. Thank you. Win.

Winchester Butterbean (talk) 13:02, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Here is one more bit of evidence Under “responsibilities of a waitress—upselling is #8 point

https://www.highlyjobs.com/career/Duties-and-Responsibilities-of-a-Waitress/27

Winchester Butterbean (talk) 14:46, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Meters? Are you assured that these sources are ok if I Re edit the waitstaff section? I’m trying to get a consensus? Do we have a consensus? Winchester Butterbean (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

"Waitstaff?"

I've worked off and on in hotels & restaurants since 1966, for long periods in Florida, Los Angeles & NYC. Never heard that word, not once. Is it really mainstream enough for it's prominent & bolded positioning at the top of this article? SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)