Talk:Khalistan movement

Hardeep Singh Nijjar

Killed in Canada on June 2023. It's important to mention that: He was reportedly organising an unofficial referendum in India for an independent Sikh nation at the time of this death.

References

Improve Lead paragraphs

Here are some new WP:RS references from Sep / Oct 2023 that may help improve the lead to make it more balanced and neutral.

• "What is the Khalistan movement and why is it fuelling India-Canada rift?". reuters. 2023-09-19. Archived from the original on 22 September 2023. Retrieved 2023-09-24. Sikh separatists demand that their homeland Khalistan, meaning "the land of the pure", be created out of Punjab. The demand has resurfaced many times, most prominently during a violent insurgency in the 1970s and 1980s which paralysed Punjab for over a decade.

• Mogul, Rhea (October 6, 2023). "Why is India so worried about Sikh separatist calls for Khalistan?". CNN. Retrieved October 6, 2023. The decade-long Khalistan insurgency in the 1970s and 80s saw the massacre of civilians, indiscriminate bombings and attacks on Hindus. And in counterinsurgency operations, Indian security forces were accused of a multitude of human rights abuses. RogerYg (talk) 09:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 09:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

November

@Capitals00 You have been boldly reverted with adequate explanations in my edit summaries. Please get a consensus for contentious edits here first instead of edit warring per WP:ONUS Kiu99 (talk) 14:27, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

You are not explaining why you are reverting the reliably sourced academically accepted facts. Srijanx22 (talk) 15:22, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

[1] Read the edit summaries then. I am only removing undue content from the lead per WP:NOTSCANDAL. We can't place rumours on the lead in the name of " academically accepted facts". No academic is making these claims Kiu99 (talk) 15:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The other edits I removed are just Indian govt claims which are undue. No academic claims there either Kiu99 (talk) 16:48, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

It is a well-known academically accepted fact. For example, "Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had supported the Khalistan idea politically at every possible opportunity while under Zia Pakistan's engagement deepened."[2] You stand no chance with your removal of the sourced content. Srijanx22 (talk) 17:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

You're not paying attention. The content dispute here is not about if Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto sponsored the movement or not, it is about the BLP violating gossip material about what ZAB said being placed on the lead which looks like a conspiracy theory. I will not rehash the same policy link I referred to again which mentions this, please go through my first comment.

Also, I would be interested to know what is your (and user Capitals00's) opinion about the claims by an Indian govt official being placed on the lead in a very one sided/unbalanced manner (as no denial by the accused is even mentioned)? Kiu99 (talk) 18:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

There are no "claims by an Indian govt official being placed on the lead". There is no BLP violation either. Srijanx22 (talk) 13:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

[3] I posted this on the reliable sources noticeboard just to verify if getting into a content dispute for this dubious quote is even worth it or not, and the response I got was this. So, the statement currently in the lead is misquoted and, in my opinion, highly WP:UNDUE. Lead is supposed to be the summary of the body. The current version starts with the needed intro about what the movement is and one line sentences about the events starting from the 1950's to the 1990's as per body.

The currently misquoted (+misplaced) line on the lead is from the "Outside of India" section for which there already exists a paragraph about support from Pakistan and the Sikh diaspora. Hence making this "quote" excess detail and undue for lead.

I also note that there is currently nothing about the militant groups on the lead mentioned in detail further down the article either, which should be. We shouldn't be giving this much undue weight to content from "outside support" section, especially when it involves a cherry picked line from a detailed interview. See WP:LEADFIX

(Side note: when I said claims by the "Indian govt" I was talking about the Punjab govt minister, who IS part of the Indian govt. But I rather not get into that further, my main objection is the undue misquoted line discussed above) Kiu99 (talk) 12:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Sources have been already provided to you for proving the inportance of the information. It won't get removed from the lead. It speaks of the creation of Khalistan movement. Capitals00 (talk) 13:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2023

In Operation Blue Star section, add the following information from Operation Blue Star wiki article: "Indian forces were aware that civilians were present inside, and the operation began on a Sikh religious day, the martyrdom day of Guru Arjan Dev, when many worshippers would be present."

The invasion of the temple on a Sikh religious holiday, when more worshippers are present than usual, is a highly pertinent historical fact and should be mentioned when discussing the date of the invasion. Suggest adding this after the sentence "Army units led by Lt. Gen. Kuldip Singh Brar (a Sikh), surrounded the temple complex on 3 June 1984." Prabhjote1 (talk) 19:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm not seeing how these additions are immediately relevant to the subject of the article, and going into more detail than there already is may not be neutral. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, it provides value by providing additional backlight to the readers such that they understand the magnitude of the situations. The article should be as verbose as possible, including sources like these will only provide more mental clarity Astrolamp (talk) 04:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

100% agree with @Prabhjote1 and @astrolamp. What Prabhjote1 mentioned should definitely be added to this article. 2604:3D08:7A8E:2B00:8B36:3388:5281:193F (talk) 06:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

In order to mantain neutrality, I think adding "The invasion occurred due to the housing of an terrorist, Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and lead to the death of Indira Gandhi" would be helpful.

This statement is backed by the following sources:

1. Mark Juergensmeyer (2004). "From Bhindranwale to Bin Laden: The Rise of Religious Violence" (PDF). eScholarship. University of California. Retrieved 2024-09-15.

2. Mark Juergensmeyer (2007). "From Bhindranwale to Bin Laden: A Search for Understanding Religious Violence". In John R. Hinnells; Richard King (eds.). Religion and Violence in South Asia: Theory and Practice. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-37290-9. Retrieved 2024-09-15.

3. Prem Mahadevan (2013). "Terrorism and Religious Violence in South Asia". In Jianhong Liu; Bill Hebenton; Susyan Jou (eds.). Handbook of Asian Criminology. World Scientific. ISBN 978-1-4614-5218-8. Retrieved 2024-09-15.

4. Darshan Singh Tatla (1990). "The Sikh Diaspora: The Search for Statehood". Studies in Conflict & Terrorism. 13 (4–5): 221–238. doi:10.1080/10576109108435880. Retrieved 2024-09-15.

5. Gurnam Singh (2023). Terrorism through the Ages. Kalpaz Publications. p. 159. ISBN 9789394804593. Retrieved 2024-09-15.

6. Kaur, Ravneet (2019). "Operation Blue Star: A Brief Study". Annales Universitatis Mariae Curie-Skłodowska, sectio K – Politologia. 26 (1): 123–132. doi:10.17951/k.2019.26.1.123-132. PrakitEnjoyer (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Omission of sources/citations that jeopardize the integrity of the article.

Given that the situation involves many political parties, it would be considered pragmatic to use sources that are not partially or holistically funded by these parties as to prevent polarizing and possible biased opinions from influencing and jeopardizing the neutrality of this article.

I'd like to point out the following article for informed choices on the sources: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Sources

Considering that many of the sources originate in India, such as the The Times of India, the following section may be notable: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Paid reporting in Indian news organizations Astrolamp (talk) 04:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Biasedness and reversing edits.

@Southasianhistorian8 Please mention your reasoning for reverting a perfectly healthy edit calling it "puffery". I haven't deleted anything, just added more information regarding the movement. The "independence struggle seeking to create a separate homeland" line gives us a very objective idea of this whole movement than just calling it just a "separatist movement". How is this false praise/puffery? Aren't you just presuming Bad Faith on my part at this point? Also I did some other minor edits in the same edit, which got reverted by your blanket reversal. Care to explain what were wrong in those edits?

I'm assuming you're somewhat against using the word "independence" and only use the word "separatism" for this movement but that's not how wikipedia functions. This isn't an ideological battleground where one word must rule supreme because it benefits one party's interests.

I have also seen your user history and it's broadly India related edits with a lot of them having an apparent ideological/subjective stance. This article is "controversial" as well as having the "contentious tag", which makes your edits come into more scrutiny.

You have been warned multiple times by other users for multiple reasons, and some of them as recent as August 2024, and yet you continue doing the same thing.

Lastly, I don't want to have an Edit War. If you don't respect the dispute resolution process and continue reverting my edits I will have to contact an adminstrator, and not just for this edit. A professional editor/admin can easily see the patterns of editing and vandalism much better than me. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 15:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Contact whomever you want to contact, it's obvious your edit undermines the neutrality of the page, in particular through your removal of the descriptor "militant" to describe the Punjab insurgency, even though it is common knowledge and there is an abundance of scholarly work that detail numerous Sikh separatist militants committing violent acts against civilians during this time, and your addition of the word "struggle" at the end of the lead, which clearly intends to evoke sympathy for the movement/ideology.

@RegentsPark, could you weigh in here? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 15:37, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

And contrary to your convictions, it is you that is violating Wikipedia's norms and guidelines. WP:ONUS states that the burden lies upon the person seeking to change the status quo of an article to gain consensus to implement their changes, as you are trying to do. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 15:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@SoloKnowHow83, I'm fine with calling it an independence movement, but for now you need to reinstate "militant" to describe the Punjab insurgency and remove "struggle" from the lead. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 15:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Southasianhistorian8 The whole insurgency was not "militant", parts of it were. The next line in the article tells us that. People interested in the militant part can go the specific article. Using a blanket statement like that here violates the neutrality standards.

I am ready to change the word "struggle" if you can give an explanation why it is not apt. Also please recommend other synonymous words we can use here. Thank you. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Southasianhistorian8 I already gave my reasons to change the status quo but you're using WP:Stonewalling tactics. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 15:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Southasianhistorian8 Answer the substantative questions without deviating.

The descriptor "militant" was used without viable citation in that line. You're using your own subjective standards here. It doesn't matter if you have abundance of scholarly work if they arent cited or to the context.

"Struggle" is often used with "Independence" but sure you again assume bad faith of "symapthy". You could have atleast changed the word but you used a blanket reversal.

@RegentsPark, I don't know who you're but please look at this users edit history and Talk Page. This doesn't seem like a unique thing. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 15:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia's rules, a lead does not need to include citations as long as the topic is discussed in the body, which it does. There is no consensus for including the word "struggle" to label the movement, so you are again contravening Wikipedia's rules by adding it. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 15:57, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Southasianhistorian8 Nothing is airtight. Citations may not necessary for general cases but unique cases can arise where it maybe necessary. Anyway I am not asking for citations because I accept this is a "separatist" movement as has been discussed in this article. That's why I haven't removed it.

Wikipedia doesn't need consensus until there is a conflict arising, which it has. But Wikipedia also demands substantative arguments for removal of a word, presuming bad faith like a user having some kind of "sympathy" doesn't exactly fits that bill. "Independence struggle" is a very popular word and is used everywhere to describe "Indpendence movements". I used it to make the sentence better flowing and grammatically accurate.

I am nonetheless agrreable to a change and again ask you to recommend synonymous words. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 16:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

If I didn't use the word "struggle" and used "movement", the sentence would be "Khalistan movement is an Independence movement..." which isn't the best grammatical way to express the idea. Never knew that my struggle to find an appropriate word would lead to this immense debate. SoloKnowHow83 (talk) 16:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, my main point of contention is the sentence at the end: "alleging their involvement in violent attacks and homicides on Canadian citizens supporting this struggle which replaced the sentence "Canadian Sikh separatists". Firstly because the citizens in Canada who support this movement are predominantly Sikhs, by including a broad label like "Canadian citizens", it would imply that the movement has significant support across religious and ethnic lines in Canada, and there is no evidence whatsoever to support that.

The inclusion of "supporting this struggle" strategically placed at the very end, to me at least, seems to be a tactic to unduly elicit sympathy for the movement; "struggle" is often appended to militant movements, many of which target civilians, as a way to absolve said movement and to portray it as a group of people fighting a more powerful and insidious opponent denying them a fundamental right. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 17:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)