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"A New Protocols: Kevin MacDonald's Reconceptualization of Antisemitic Conspiracy Theory"

A JSTOR article.Antisemitism Studies Vol. 5, No. 1 (Spring 2021), pp. 4-43 (40 pages). If anyone wants it, just ask me. Doug Weller talk 16:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is a consensus among scholarly sources/reliable sources, that support the current lead
Kevin B. MacDonald (born January 24, 1944) is an American anti-semitic conspiracy theorist, white supremacist, and a retired professor of evolutionary psychology at California State University, Long Beach (CSULB).[1][2][3]
then it should stay the way it is, if not, then it should be changed. Right now I see the Russian as well as the German Wikipedia leads are very different from the lede here and I'd note that in general, the entry in the Russian Wikipedia has a much more objectine tone than the one here has, which you can easily check by using Google Translate.

~~Activist groups' like the SPLC and ADF opinions in the lede are clearly not sufficient. --Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)~~[reply]

Experts in antisemitism are the right groups to provide views on antisemitism. What the German or Russian Wikipedia articles say is absolutely irrelevant to what is in our article, and "much more objective tone" seems like a personal opinion. Additional sources could include:

Anti-semitism: A History and Psychoanalysis of Contemporary Hatred, Avner Falk, ABC-CLIO, 2008, pp 103-104
David Isador Lieberman "Evolutionary Psychology" in Antisemitism: A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution, Volume 1 (Richard S. Levy, Dean Phillip Bell eds.), 2008, pp 215-216
Antisemitism: Exploring the Issue, Steven Leonard Jacobs, ABC-CLIO, 2020 p 113
"American Racist", David Samuels, Tablet Magazine, June 11, 2020

This appears to be the academic consensus. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:20, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You might realise that there can be no such thing as an academic consensus on what is anti-semitic or racist, anymore than there is an academic consensus on what being a good person entails. It is quite literally unfalsifiable. Unless you think somehow you can falsify whether someone is racist or a moral person, I urge you to publish your data that is sure to send ripples throughout nearly every scientific field. 126.166.149.176 (talk) 04:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if a random person on the internet says there can be no such thing, then that is how it is. Case closed, huh?

We follow the reliable sources. If you have reliable sources backing your claims, bring them. If not, there is no point in discussing. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:23, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss here

IP 2001:569:5177:2900:9153:45DB:921A:48A3 is of course welcome to discuss their preferred edits here rather than edit warring. As should be clear from the fact that they've been reverted by three other editors (not to mention the discussions above which hinge on similar issues), consensus appears to be strongly against the changes they wish to make. While it's true that statements by the ADL and SPLC usually need to be attributed, in this case they are far from the only sources making the same claims. In cases such as this one, where there are abundant reliable sources stating the same thing, the reader is not served by equivocation. Generalrelative (talk) 23:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing of note for Kevin MacDonald is that he is an antisemitic conspiracy theorist. Without that, there would be no article about him. If you edit the article so as to avoid saying this, the article is not being truthful about him.

It is wrong to describe his work on the subject as scholarly, since he has no training or background in Jewish history or culture. He is writing well outside his field of expertise, and cannot claim to be a scholar in the area. Bob Gollum (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ordering of labels in lead sentence

Grayfell, I think you would have a better case for the current version if you could identify that there are more reliable sources describing him as a "conspiracy theorist" and "white supremacist" than a "psychologist." Otherwise the ordering you have in your version (first "conspiracy theorist", then "white supremacist", then "psychologist") makes no sense and gives activist vibes. My impression is that he's far more frequently described as a "psychologist" than those other labels, and when those other labels are used they are always subsequent to his initial description as a psychologist. (The only exception to this is in the Kriegman piece).

I'm also worried that the mention of the CSULB academic senate voting to disassociate itself from MacDonald's work is not due for the first paragraph of the lead. It should be mentioned in the article, of course, perhaps even in the lead, but the emphasis on it right away is strange. Academic senates aren't experts in the field, often just university bureaucrats. It's worth noting as well his department defended his right to freedom of expression ("We respect and defend his right to express his views..."). JDiala (talk) 08:42, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MacDonald is not generally known as a psychologist in some abstract sense, he is only noteworthy because he is an antisemitic conspiracy theorist and white supremacist. Otherwise he likely wouldn't even meet WP:NPROF and wouldn't have an article at all. The goal of the first paragraph is to explain why people are noteworthy. This is a WP:FRINGE topic, and Wikipedia is not a platform for public relations. Grayfell (talk) 09:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My 2¢: Notability isn't the only concern here. The former wording was more *readable*, avoiding the erroneous reading "professor of white supremacist". Generalrelative (talk) 11:29, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit misleading. It's not his conspiratorial views per se that make him notable (any schmuck can believe in a conspiracy theory, they don't automatically get famous) but rather that he is a professor with real academic bona fides that happens to hold these views. The edit I've suggested doesn't contribute to his public relations (as it still describes him as a conspiracy theorist, a white supremacist and every other epithet in the original version) nor does it fail the task of "[explaining] why [he is] noteworthy". As I've already asked you, you would have a stronger case if you presented multiple reliable sources which follow this ordering convention. Since you don't, I don't think your position has much merit. JDiala (talk) 18:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The WSJ article is not whitewashing him, and it describes him as: "Kevin B. MacDonald, a 74-year-old psychologist and retired professor at California State University, Long Beach. Mr. MacDonald’s theories about Jews have become the philosophical and theoretical inspiration for white supremacist and nationalist movements." Something like that would be much more accurate and neutral than opening with him being a "conspiracy theorist" and other epithets. Roger (talk) 18:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]