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Talk:Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim

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Mannerheim's height

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The article states:

The handsome young Baron towered over his classmates, standing 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m).

Shouldn't an article about a Finnish man attending a Finnish cadet school for the Russian army cite his height in metric first? Or does the cited source actually only give his height in imperial units? JIP | Talk 21:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mannerheim's alleged role in siege of Leningrad and/or other atrocities

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1. I have moved the discussion of M's alleged role in the seige of Leningrad to the legacy section. It doesn't belong in the intro without being discussed also in the body of the article

2. The primary problem is those sources cited that I can find discuss almost exclusively the siege of Leningrad. There is mention of some angry communists in Leningrad throwing paint on a barracks marker noting the origins of M's service in the Czarist Russian military. There is also an article talking about a St. Pet. court finding Finland guilty of war crimes or ?

      • By WP standards, THESE do NOT qualify as scholarly sources, and in any case they do not appear to TIE M to siege of Leningrad.

3. *** AS SUCH, if this material is to stay, someone who wishes to keep it needs to provide a scholarly source tying M to the siege of Leningrad.

  • AND if it is not a consensus of the Mannerheim scholars, it should be stated for what it is. If the Russian viewpoint differs from the scholarly consensus among historians, then if it is to be included at all, it should be pointed out IN THE TEXT of the article what it is: a minority viewpoint from Russia. It's unreasonable in this scenario to foist a minority viewpoint on WP readers as anything other than what it actually is!

After a reasonable time for finding and discussing the bonafides of any such sources, the sources need to be added OR the material deleted. Last time I checked "NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH" is one of the top ten tenets of all WP editing.

4. What I have seen in the past in this and similar articles is it comes down to the bonafides of scholarship of some post-Soviet Russian scholar, if in fact there even IS any such "scholar" in this case. I would have to defer to some WP Mannerheim historians more qualified than I on that matter, but I do NOT defer on the basic requirement for NO original research, even if a lot of WP editors routinely get away with violating this basic rule. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.115.22.242 (talk) 20:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bidlack is an American history professor. The source reports that Finnish forces, led by Mannerheim, had a significant role in the Siege of Leningrad. Multiple other sources on the page support this. You're removing all content with all sources, including ones that meet standards. If you are after integrity, remove what is unsupported or not up to snuff, but it is disingenuous to suggest that an American history professor publishing through Yale in English, for example, is a questionable Russian view. Kievaughn (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced opinions of Wikipedia editors not permitted under WP:No original research

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The problems with including this material are manifold: A. The offered sources do not appear to tie M to the atrocities claimed. B. Some of the cited sources are dead links. C. Iltalehti and Aamulehti are hardly scholarly sources; THEY also do not appear to tie M to the assertions made in the article. D. Under basic rules of composition, you can't bring up in the introduction material that is NOT discussed in the actual article.

1. Under English Wikipedia sourcing rules, I am requesting the editor(s) wishing to include this material to provide English translations for the material requested to be included. In the case of the Iltalehti article, in addition to it being a suspect source, it DOES NOT MAKE the assertions that the editors are trying to include in the article. As an editor you CANNOT draw inferences or your own conclusions from source material EVEN IF IT IS accepted by scholars. If the/an editor can provide a quote from ANY OF THE SOURCES offered that make the same assertions as the editors are making AFAIAC it would be fine to include the material in the article, but unless it's something more scholarly than Iltalehti or Aamulehti, it should be QUALIFIED as such, NOT stated as fact AND NOT STATED as a scholarly position, unless some consensus of editors agrees that IS a scholarly position on M.

2. It is NOT a case of burying the material at all. Quite the contrary: If the assertions are supported by scholarly sources OR ANY sources to start with, it can be included. But it needs to be INTRODUCED IN THE INTRODUCTION, then expanded on in an appropriate section of the body of the article.

3. The disputed material is being removed here to TALK until such time it is properly sourced INCLUDING the INFERENCES AND CONCLUSIONS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT M that are largely or entirely NOT covered in the sources.

      • TO INCLUDE THE MATERIAL, the editor wishing to do so needs to provide supporting quotes ABOUT MANNERHEIM from the citations s/he is listing because I do not see them and doubt they exist. Then if such supporting sources can be proved, the material needs to be INTRODUCED in the INTRODUCTION and continued in an appropriate section of the article, NOT all just DUMPED in the intro, NEVERMORE to be discussed again! ***

It is specifically NOT allowed under WP:No original research for an editor to take cited source material, then expand on it with his/her OWN conclusions, inferences, etcetera--EVEN IF those conclusions are reasonable. I am NOT saying that here the conclusions ARE reasonable.

One basic example of non-permitted connections on the part of a WP editor is that a s/he cannot on the basis the AH visited MM on MM's 75th birthday and/or on the basis that Finland was an ally or "co-belligerent" or WHATEVER at the time of German operations around Leningrad OR anywhere ELSE declare in the WP article that MM is therefore a collaborator of AH. In the case of the birthday visit it is a non sequitur. BUT... even if you could find a hundred or a thousand examples of MM/AH get-togethers in a war context or just as friends, you CANNOT call them collaborators UNLESS some qualifying source (or ANY source to start with) actually CALLS them collaborators or words to that effect. That's what NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH MEANS.

as well as his role in the siege of Leningrad, a joint campaign with Nazi Germany, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 900,000 to more than 1,000,000 civilians, including women and children, and has been deemed a genocide by the Russian government as well as some historians.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Mannerheim approved the use of Finnish troops in the Waffen-SS, where some probably committed atrocities against Jews, prisoners of war, and civilians;[8][9] he was also a personal collaborator of Adolf Hitler.[10][11]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.119.176 (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I didn't know about this rule! So I'll go ahead and remove all Finnish language sources and related text. Kievaughn (talk) 08:46, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Jokelin, Jantso (June 4, 2017). "Punikkisuvun lapsi puuskahtaa: Antakaa Marskille jo se suurmieselokuva". Aamulehti (in Finnish). Retrieved January 27, 2021.
  2. ^ St Petersburg court finds Finland guilty of 'genocide' during 1940s Leningrad siege[permanent dead link]
  3. ^ Bidlack, Richard; Lomagin, Nikita (2012). The Leningrad Blockade, 1941–1944: A New Documentary History from the Soviet Archives. Translated by Schwartz, Marian. Yale University Press. pp. 1, 36. ISBN 9780300110296. JSTOR j.ctt5vm646. Next to the Holocaust, the Leningrad siege was the greatest act of genocide in Europe during the Second World War, as Germany, and to a lesser extent Finland, tried to bombard and starve Leningrad into submission. [...] The number of civilians who died from hunger, cold, and enemy bombardment within the blockaded territory or during and immediately following evacuation from it is reasonably estimated to be around 900,000.
  4. ^ Ganzenmüller 2005 page 334
  5. ^ Hund, Wulf Dietmar; Koller, Christian; Zimmermann, Moshe (2011). Racisms Made in Germany. Münster: LIT Verlag. p. 25. ISBN 978-3-643-90125-5.
  6. ^ Vihavainen, Timo; Schrey-Vasara, Gabriele (2011). "Opfer, Täter, Betrachter: Finnland und die Leningrader Blockade". Osteuropa. 61 (8/9): 48–63. JSTOR 44936431.
  7. ^ Siegl, Elfie (2011). "Die doppelte Tragödie: Anna Reid über die Leningrader Blockade". Osteuropa. 61 (8/9): 358–363. JSTOR 44936455.
  8. ^ Pajunen & Karjalainen 2019, pp. 9–11.
  9. ^ Westerlund 2019, pp. 202–203.
  10. ^ Chapman, Clare (15 October 2004). "Finnish Radio To Air Unique Hitler Recording"". The Guardian. Retrieved 15 June 2014.
  11. ^ "Secret Voice of Hitler". National Geographic. Archived from the original on 2017-03-12.

Lead

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The lead section got a bit long but: how about we won't rule it too long but instead decide we won't add more to it? Someone was bound to bring it up so I did it first with a pro-status quo take. --Skjölker (talk) 02:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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