Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music

Adding a new page on WikiProject Music

Hello, can anybody help me add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Jolyon_Petch to this group?

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ainamera22 (talk • contribs) 01:26, July 17, 2021 (UTC)

Is K-Pop a music genre?

Due to my edits on quite a lot of articles of K-Pop songs being removed most of them saying K-Pop isn't a genre. I believe it is and I want to provide a consensus across Wikipedia if it is.

From what I know, the first known open discussion about this on English Wikipedia is made by me at Talk:K-pop#Is K-Pop a music genre? and one at Talk:Ddu-du Ddu-Du#Is K-Pop a music genre?

If this discussion gets too big, maybe it could it a WikiProject if it works like that too. —Tonkarooson (talk) 00:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now, I'm going to share my reasons why I think K-Pop is a music genre:

Most K-Pop music is recorded in South Korea and released in South Korea.
If you can tell the difference between K-Pop and other songs, then it's pretty easy to tell which song is Korean.
K-Pop has a unique style that can be easy to differentiate.
K-Pop isn't just a musical genre, it's an industry, distributed and promoted in a very different way than other territories, even if it's just a little bit.

also, if this topic doesnt have enough people interested, it would be best to move this discussion to a different WikiProject.—Tonkarooson (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may want to take some more time learning how Wikipedia works before taking this on. Those sorts of reasons aren't likely to be persuasive in the context of Wikipedia... Sergecross73 msg me 23:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's no intention to persuade, but I will gladly look at the necessary guidelines about this. What things should I look at? —Tonkarooson (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with the subject area, but the current wording of the K-pop article doesn't seem to refer to it as a genre, so it would seem like that's at least its current status. I have no personal opinion on the matter, though I can say that not every descriptor we use to describe music is automatically a genre. We don't consider a power ballad a genre either, for example.

Also, that's...not really how Wikiprojects work. They really just form when you've got a bunch of constant, dedicated editors who work frequently on the area and have interest in putting the work in on putting them together and collaborating in them. While anyone can make one on anything, in my experience and opinion, the vast majority of them fail due to lack of activity/participation. On one hand, K-pop is popular right now, so maybe there is hope. On the other hand, usually only the most widest appeal are functional. WP:ALBUMS is really the only other active music one besides here. WP:VG is pretty much the only active one in video games. People always say there's a popular one about military history or something. But more specific ones - like Wikiproject "Rock Music" or "Lady Gaga" or whatever - always seem to fizzle out. Sergecross73 msg me 14:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's already a Wikipedia:WikiProject Korea/Popular culture task force that focuses on K-pop music articles. Erick (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Erick is right, there is no need for a WikiProject when a task force already exists, and that's enough. As for the original question, I tend to think that K-pop is not a genre and more a widely used term for any music originating from South Korea. I'm not an expert in this area either, but I've heard enough K-pop to see that it covers a wide variety of music styles which makes it difficult to say that a particular song or artist is "typical of the genre". Richard3120 (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the question is similar to Latin pop. Is it pop music sung in Korean or pop music fused with other Korean music? Erick (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The K-Pop article's description says "South Korean popular music genre", describing it as a genre. However, the last sentence in the first paragraph says, "While "K-pop" can refer to all popular music or pop music from South Korea, it is colloquially often used in a narrower sense for any Korean music and artists associated with the entertainment and idol industry in the country, regardless of the genre. [contradictory]". These sentences here makes its definition of a musical genre make it even more of a harder question to debate on. —Tonkarooson (talk) 04:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think K-pop is a genre and from what I see most K-pop editors on Wikipedia seem to consider it one, although some prefer more specific genres if sources say those. The K-pop article discusses it being a genre—e.g. The more modern form of the genre, originally termed "rap dance"... and discusses it being a "hybrid genre" in that it synthesizes a lot of Western music styles, like EDM and hip hop—and it's also categorised as a pop music genre. I think that's pretty clear, but obviously some editors are bound to disagree. IF there's contention around what you consider a simple broad genre description, it's best to source it. Ss112 17:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're alluding to me, its not that I disagree per se, its just that I figured it'd be a little bit more upfront in its own article if it was generally considered a genre. For example:

Disco opens up as "Disco is a genre of dance music".
K-pop opens up as "K-pop (Korean: 케이팝; RR: keipap), short for Korean popular music, is a form of popular music originating in South Korea as part of South Korean culture. It includes styles and genres from around the world, such as pop, hip hop, R&B, rock, jazz, gospel, reggae, electronic dance, folk, country, disco, and classical on top of its traditional Korean music roots".

In the K-pop article, the word "genre" doesn't pop up to describe the subject itself its opening 2 sentences defining it. To me, that makes it sound more like an umbrella term than a genre itself. Of course, Wikipedia itself is not a source, nor am I saying it should be considered as one. I'm just saying...if it was considered a genre, this intro would certainly feel like a rather upfront and glaring error on a high traffic and well-developed article. And one that's been present for at least the entirety of 2024.

Regardless, if its a recurring issue, maybe it'd be worth creating an WP:RFC for. Sergecross73 msg me 18:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This topic wasn't meant to judge if it's a genre or not according to Wikipedia. The people who edit K-Pop articles would probably know quite a lot about K-Pop as a whole. I listen to and really like K-Pop. I believe this discussion shouldn't include what Wikipedia says. Another question that could go good is, how much do you know about K-Pop and its music? —Tonkarooson (talk) 05:05, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was just an example. Sergecross73 msg me 10:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a pure OR perspective, I can say that I find it complicated. Having heard a decent amount of K-pop, I can tell you that it often stretches across various genres/influences in the same way American pop music does, e.g. later BTS songs are nu-disco; Blackpink makes very loud electropop; and NewJeans make very soft, '90s/2000s electronica. I've even heard "K-pop" (or "K-indie" in some instances) groups who make rock and metal music. Typically, they are tied together sonically by a particularly squeaky clean production style, though that isn't too different from pop music generally. I think it's a bit oversimple to just call it "pop music from South Korea", but that's also a wholly accurate description. Whether that's worth labelling as its own genre, I dunno, though I think it'd be weird to remove from articles on K-pop songs/albums because of that lack of designation because the connection is still clear and it's quite reasonable to assume readers would want to click on that link.

But again, that's purely OR on my part. I don't know what sources say because I haven't checked, but I imagine they'd be just as vague about it as we are. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 19:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and it's worth noting that K-pop isn't the only national scene to which this discussion applies. An editor recently removed J-rock from an entry on List of 2007 albums. I would have to imagine the same logic would apply to J-pop, Mandopop, Cantopop, C-pop, and Indo pop (and probably a whole bunch more) as well. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 19:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what "OR" means. Other music genres do all kinds of styles and subgenres, for example Rap, EDM and others.

I don't have much to say about this take because it's talking about what music styles other groups do, rather than what K-Pop has that can classify it as a genre or not.

Quite fascinating such similar topics are in other wide labels of music, though! —Tonkarooson (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OR stands for "wp:original research", which is to say things that editors add per their own knowledge but without providing a reliable source that backs up the claim, AKA a big no-no. Basically, I just wanted to give my own two cents from my own knowledge, but while acknowledging that what I'm saying can't be used because I don't have the background research available to support it. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What would be extremely helpful if the people who don't know much about K-Pop can learn more about it! —Tonkarooson (talk) 22:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, I asked a friend who is a K-pop expert, and his response wasn't a direct yes or no. Even from what I know, as I said, it's a complicated matter, and as I told my friend, I suspect that means we should default to no. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 00:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we say no to K-Pop being a music genre, I believe it wouldn't be enough consensus to conduct a final answer.

In case you didn't see, I have listed my own reasons why I think it is a genre at the top of this discussion, including some replies back. —Tonkarooson (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OR is short for original research. Erick (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coming back to this discussion for a second.

It has been suggested that I should research on K-Pop and learn more about Wikipedia. I haven't done any research about this possible genre ngl.

What I wanted to add to this is, if K-Pop doesn't come to a conclusion/consensus if it is a music genre or not, possibly we could consider it as a umbrella term or a microgenre. It makes sense, on Wikipedia, it is a niche or specialized genre. What's really unique about these two terms for K-Pop is that they both fit K-Pop extremely well! (To me at least). Tonkarooson (discuss). 00:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're quite understanding how Wikipedia works. We, as editors, don't just decide on things on like ourselves. Everything is based on WP:V - what reliable sources say. The terminology needs to reflect what sources most commonly say on the matter. Sergecross73 msg me 01:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do understand how Wikipedia works. I understand most editors take facts from sources that are reliable. But also, I believe this question about K-Pop also has to do with the person's opinion, seeing how vast and diverse K-Pop is with its music styles. And due to this, it seems like the type of question where we possibly might have to learn more about K-Pop in a neutral point of view by learning more about its characteristics and the way K-Pop sounds compared to other songs that are not K-Pop

For example, you might have listened to a song and couldn't quite figure out what it's called or who's it by. For K-Pop it's a bit different but same outcome, you might be able to tell the difference between K-Pop and not K-Pop. Tonkarooson (discuss). 03:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No no no. Not "most" editors. All editors must take facts from reliable sources. Some (unfortunately too many) fail at this, but it's still a hard rule. This is not and has never been a question of editors' opinions, but of what reliable sources say. Relying on our opinions, as I said above, would be original research, and that is not allowed. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 03:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the top I said "I believe it is and I want to provide a consensus across Wikipedia if it is." This was partially meant to be a consensus across general knowledge of K-pop, but not original research. Also, your comment has OR and seems to discuss the sound of all the different genres. "But again, that's purely OR on my part. I don't know what sources say because I haven't checked, but I imagine they'd be just as vague about it as we are." Yes, the sources probably thinks it's a hard question, which it seems like it is. Tonkarooson (discuss). 04:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, when I made those comment, I knew that the discussion wasn't strictly coming from a Wikipedia-centric perspective. But there's a line between just having a conversation about a topic and actually implementing the results of that discussion in editing practice. Nothing I said was ever meant to leave this page, and that's why I emphasized that it was coming from my own perspective and not any sources. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can only see 2 interpretations of what's happening here. 1) You're asking editors if we can call K-Pop a "microgenre", which no editor can unilaterally decide for you because we need to go by sources, not editor's opinions. Or 2) You're asking other editors to do your research for you, which isn't likely to happen, as on Wikipedia, we generally follow WP:BURDEN - if you wish to pursue something, then it's on you to do it, not others. Sergecross73 msg me 13:31, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All female bands

Why do we categorise bands with all female members as "all female" while never categorising bands with all male members as "all male" or bands with a mix of member genders as "mixed gender"? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 12:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a problem--cat should be deleted, in my opinion. Caro7200 (talk) 12:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One is probably considered WP:DEFINING, the other not. There are many scenarios where we we don't have "equivalent" categories like that, for that very reason. Sergecross73 msg me 13:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seconding this. I'm sure if you search the bands in Category:All-female bands, you'll find a lot of results using that exact phrase. And, as CATGENDER says, certain categories don't need to be balanced against an equivalent. Separating categories by gender is standard Wikipedia practice now, and this falls well within those terms, so I see no issue here. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 16:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Serge for the useful link. I may, if I ever have the energy, wade through some of them and see if it's sources or us defining them. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 22:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But there is Category:Mixed-gender bands. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 04:37, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sad news

I am sad to report that Hyacinth,a very long-standing editor to articles on this project, has passed away. Condolences should go on his talk page. Graham87 (talk) 08:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best of Kris Kross Remixed '92 '94 '96

I couldn't find any sources for Best of Kris Kross Remixed '92 '94 '96 whatsoever, and I don't think it's even an official album, as it doesn't even have an entry on AllMusic. Jax 0677 (talk · contribs) is being a bit unusual about sourcing, claiming that Kris Kross needs a source to prove the album exists even though it has an article. (I cannot wrap my brain around the concept of "Article A needs a source to prove that the subject of Article B exists.") I could only find Discogs, Genius, and other user generated sources for it, and no mentions of it in reliable sources like Billboard. I personally think it should be sent to AFD for lack of verifiability and being an unlikely redirect/merge term due to its seemingly unofficial nature, but as I am topic banned from XFD I cannot do it myself and leave it to others to decide. Pinging @Binksternet:, @Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars:, and @Koavf:, all of whom have edited the article. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 03:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've found the album listed in three books: [1], [2] and [3]. It definitely exists though I am doubtful it should have it's own article. I'll add these sources to the Kris Kross article. Vladimir.copic (talk) 03:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still not convinced it's notable. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 05:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From my search I would probably agree with you that it isn't notable enough for a standalone article. But, in your initial comment you were saying that the album isn't "official" and cannt be verified. I've provided three high quality sources verifying the album exists and is "official" (whatever this means). (Also an album's "officialness" doesn't affect its notability.) Vladimir.copic (talk) 05:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a lack of sources, so it's appropriate to redirect and keep the categories. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with this and have gone ahead and boldly redirected. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 06:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing lists of works

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lists of works regarding sourcing lists of works. The thread is Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Are_references_required_for_lists_of_works?. Thank you. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on the reliability of Mixdown (the Australian magazine) at RSN

There is a discussion on the reliability of Mixdown at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Any input would be helpful, the thread is WP:RSN#Mixdown (music website). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:37, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]