Talk:Druze

Discussing changes suggested to introduction

Please lets discuss these points on the current Druze article versus my suggested changes :

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The Druze faith is an esoteric monotheistic religion based on the teachings of several Ismaili figures like Hamza ibn-'Ali ibn-Ahmad and Al-Muqtana Baha'uddin who were influenced by Greek philosophers such as Plato ,Aristotle and Plotinus.

Versus

The Druze faith is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion based on the teachings of high Islamic figures like Hamza ibn-'Ali ibn-Ahmad and Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, and Greek philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.

Reason for Edit : - The main distiction about the Druze faith is being esoteric Batini this should be mentioned

- Druze are not an Abrahamic religion but monotheist , the position of Abraham is different for the Druze than the three abrahamic faiths

- high Islamic figures is not accurate , the prophet mohammad is a high islamic figure , Hamza was a preacher , Al-Hakim was the Fatimid Caliph , a more historically accurate and appropriate description is Ismaili

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and other philosophies and beliefs, creating a distinct syncretic and secretive theology that is passed on through initiation

Verus :

and secretive theology known to interpret esoterically religious scriptures, and to highlight the role of the mind and truthfulness.

Reason for Edit :

Role of the mind and truthfulness is an over simplification of the Druze theology and its the universal mind nous rather than mind as human mind

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− Also

Druze are theologically distinct from Muslims due to their eclectic system of doctrines such as the belief in theophany and reincarnation . , although Al Azhar of Egypt recognized them in 1959 as one of the Islamic sects in the Al-Azhar Shia Fatwa.

− − − The Druze were subjected to persecution due to political and religious reasons during the Fatimid, Mamluks and Ottomans rule . Most recently, Druze were targeted by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Al-Qaeda in order to cleanse Syria and neighboring countries of non-Islamic influence.

Reason for Edit : Its important to mention main difference between Druze and orthodox islam as well the source of Fatwa

Also subsituted the persecution paragraph with a summary since its the introduction and details are found in body — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiram111 (talk • contribs)

References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiram111 (talk • contribs)

Arabic for Al-Muwaḥḥidūn

In the Arabic for Al-Muwaḥḥidūn -- right side, above the star and flag -- the shadda is in the wrong place. It should be above the preceding letter, ḥāʾ. Also consider putting the Arabic in the appropriate spot in the first paragraph. Minor nit (talk) 11:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Are Druze Arab?

I would like to suggest deleting the two sentences in the entry in which the Druze are described as Arab. They are an Arabic-speaking people, but their being Arab is contested both within the Druze community itself, at least within the Druze community living in Israel, and, as the Wikipedia entry demonstrates, also the Syrian pan-Arabist nationalist discourse of past decades. Furthermore, the Wikipedia entry states that the Druze are "an ethnoreligious group," implying that they form a separate ethnicity. I'm not claiming that they are not Arab, but since it is not an agreed-upon and uncontested assertion, I think it would be more accurate to delete these two sentences (i.e.,-"The Druze are an Arab...group" and "They are Arab"). NewKnowNow (talk) 15:35, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Over 80% of the Druze worldwide live outside of Israel, primarily in Syria and Lebanon, where they identify as Arabs. In these countries, there are no movements advocating for Druze separation from Arab nationalism, and the Druze's Arab identity is not controversial. It is only in Israel that the government promotes a different narrative, in line with its policy of divide and rule. This is evident in the Druze schools, where the "Druze Heritage" curriculum is taught. Ironically, this curriculum covers figures like Sultan Pasha al-Atrash and Kamal Jumblatt without acknowledging their support for Arab nationalism or their opposition to Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel. Additionally, it perpetuates a misleading narrative about an ancient relationship between Jews and Druze, despite the Druze religion emerging over a thousand years after Christ and the historical isolation between Druze and Jews. There is no shared history or cultural interaction between the Druze and Jews comparable to the connections the Druze have with Sunnis or Maronites.

Despite Israel's efforts to promote the idea that Druze are distinct from Arabs, non-Israeli studies, such as those by the Pew Research Center, indicate that the majority of Israeli Druze see themselves as Arab. The Druze are a religious group, not an ethnicity, and the concept of a ethnic religious group does not imply a separate ethnic identity. For instance, among the Assyrians, there are ethnic religious groups like the Chaldeans, who are still considered Assyrians. Similarly, among the Druze in Israel, Arab identity is widely accepted, and only a small minority rejects this view. Our Rasa'il al-hikma and prayers are in Arabic, and we define our own identity; we do not need external definitions to understand who we are. 2.54.182.81 (talk) 19:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, in Israeli cultural contexts, the term "Arab" is often associated with being Muslim. As a result, Turks and Persians are sometimes referred to as Arabs in Israel. Consequently, some Druze, when asked if they are Arabs in conversations with Jews, may identify themselves as Druze to clarify that they are not Muslim or to gain better social acceptance. This tendency is influenced by the fact that, due to the ongoing conflict since 1948, Israeli Jews generally have more favorable attitudes toward Druze and Christians compared to Muslims. Therefore, religious minorities often emphasize their religious identity over their Arab identity to improve their social acceptance. I speak from personal experience as a member of the Druze community. 2.54.182.81 (talk) 19:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Commenting on the first comment - It doesn't have anything to do with external definitions - the majority of Druze in Israel do identify as Arab according to surveys, but a substantial minority of them do not (only 71% of them identify as Arab). The historical connections between Druze and Sunnis or Maronites or their (lack of) historical connection with Jews are irrelevant to the issue of Druze ethnicity (furthermore, there are also Lebanese Maronites who don't view themselves as Arab but rather as a separate ethnoreligious group, and that Maronite self-differentiation, though far from being universal, has a long and documented history). Since you brought up the Assyrians, they are an ethnoreligious group, and the Chaldeans are simply a religious denomination/sect within the ethnoreligious community of the Assyrians. Anyways, saying that the Druze are an ethnoreligious group and saying that they are Arab can be viewed as a contradiction, though one can also posit that they form an ethnoreligious subgroup within the larger Arab people. I don't have a strong opinion on the matter either way, and as I stated earlier I am not claiming that Druze are not Arab, but rather that many Druze in Israel do not consider themselves Arab (be their reasons for doing so what they may). NewKnowNow (talk) 20:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We are still discussing the Druze community in Israel, where there exists a Druze minority that does not identify as Arab. When referencing the Pew Center study indicating that 70% of Druze identify solely as Arab, it is important to note that the remaining percentage is split among those who identify as “Other,” “Druze” or “Druze-Arab” to describe their ethnicity p.8. Unfortunately, the study does not provide specific percentages for those who identify as “Druze-Arab”, but it is known that many Druze place significant importance on their Druze identity in addition to their Arab identity.

Additionally, Sheikh Muwaffaq Tarif, the leader of the Druze community in Israel, consistently refers to the Druze as Arabs in his speeches.

Furthermore, regarding the sources attached about the Druze as an ethnic-religious group in the article:

1. The first source, Britannica, describes the Druze as a religious sect rather than an ethnic-religious group, and it also characterizes them as Arabs, as the artilce cited: "The Druze are unique among the Arab communities in Israel, known for their loyalty to the state" and "They are the only Arab group conscripted into the Israel Defense Forces, and they participate in Israel’s border security and diplomatic corps". [1]

2. The second source, on page 135 [2], refers to the Druze as Arabs and notes that the Israeli government has given preferential treatment to the Druze compared to other Arabs. It does not categorize the Druze as an ethnic-religious group but mentions them in the context of "Arab Druze".

3. The third source does not include any reference to the term "ethnic-religious".

4. The fourth source does not use the term "ethnic-religious" and only discusses the Druze in the context of their practice of marrying within their sect to avoid assimilation. p.121

The term "ethnic-religious" in relation to the Druze does not appear to be supported by the attached sources. It seems that this term was introduced without proper backing from the provided references. I believe it should be removed. 2.55.182.110 (talk) 21:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

By the way, the second source attached to the article, which follows the statement that the Druze are an ethnic-religious group, directly supports everything I mentioned earlier. This source describes the Druze as Arabs and explains how the Israeli government’s policy has been to separate the Druze from other Arabs by 'inventing' a distinct Druze ethnicity and providing benefits to the Druze at the expense of other Arab groups in Israeli society. The source does not use the term 'ethnoreligious group'; it simply identifies the Druze as Arabs. See the second line: "The Druze are Arabs who formed a sect within Islam in the eleventh century". 2.55.182.110 (talk) 21:29, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Any claim that some Druze in Israel do not consider themselves Arabs should be accompanied by an explanation of the reasons or background behind this view. According to sources [3], this perspective is influenced by the Israeli government’s policy, which has sought since the 1950s to distinguish the Druze from other Arabs. This has been achieved through various means, such as promoting this narrative in schools and the military, offering preferential treatment to the Druze, and separating them from other Arab communities in terms of identity card and local governance [municipalities and local councils]. Understanding this context is crucial if we are to address or mention the minority of Druze in Israel who identify as non-Arabs. 2.55.182.110 (talk) 21:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The situation of the Maronites is unique because they have undergone significant Arabization. Although their origins are Syriac, there is a Maronite faction that considers itself Phoenician in origin. Until the fifteenth century, the Maronites in the villages of Mount Lebanon spoke Syriac.

The Druze, on the other hand, have a different history. The initial Druze communities emerged in areas like Wadi Taym and the suburbs of Aleppo (Jabal Sumac) before the closure of the Druze call. During this period, the region was inhabited by various Arab tribes, including the Tanukhis, the Yaminis, and the Qaysis. Over time, these tribes migrated to Mount Lebanon and later settled in Galilee, Mount Carmel, and in the seventeenth century, Mount Hauran, also known as Jabal al-Druze.

Most Druze in Israel originally come from Lebanon or Syria, particularly from Wadi Taym. We do not need Israeli propaganda to understand our own history and origins. 2.55.182.110 (talk) 22:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

I proposed to change the beginning of the lead from the following:

The Druze (/ˈdruːz/ DROOZ; Arabic: دَرْزِيّ, darzī or دُرْزِيّ durzī, pl. دُرُوز, durūz), who call themselves al-Muwaḥḥidūn (lit. 'the monotheists' or 'the unitarians'), are an Arab and Arabic-speaking esoteric ethnoreligious group

to the following:

The Druze (/ˈdruːz/ DROOZ; Arabic: دَرْزِيّ, darzī or دُرْزِيّ durzī, pl. دُرُوز, durūz), who call themselves al-Muwaḥḥidūn (lit. 'the monotheists' or 'the unitarians'), are an Arab esoteric religious group

Furthermore, regarding the sources attached about the Druze as an ethnic-religious group or Arabic-speaking in the article:

1. The first source (21), Britannica, describes the Druze as a religious sect rather than an ethnic-religious group, and it also characterizes them as Arabs, as the artilce cited: "The Druze are unique among the Arab communities in Israel, known for their loyalty to the state" and "They are the only Arab group conscripted into the Israel Defense Forces, and they participate in Israel’s border security and diplomatic corps". [4]

2. The second source (22), on page 135 [5], refers to the Druze as Arabs and notes that the Israeli government has given preferential treatment to the Druze compared to other Arabs. It does not categorize the Druze as an ethnic-religious group but mentions them in the context of "Arab Druze".

3. The third source (23) does not include any reference to the term "ethnic-religious".

4. The fourth source (24) does not use the term "ethnic-religious" and only discusses the Druze in the context of their practice of marrying within their sect to avoid assimilation. p.121

Another addition I proposed to change the beginning of the lead from the following:

West Asia who adhere to the Druze faith, an Abrahamic, monotheistic, syncretic, and ethnic religion whose main tenets assert the unity of God, reincarnation, and the eternity of the soul.

to the following:

West Asia who adhere to the Druze faith, an Abrahamic, monotheistic, and syncretic religion whose main tenets assert the unity of God, reincarnation, and the eternity of the soul.

The term "ethnic religion" should be removed, as it is not supported by the referenced sources.

1. The first source (25) refers to the Druze religion as an Abrahamic religion but does not use the term "ethnic religion". [6]

2. The second source (26) discusses the Druze religion's origins and confirms its status as a monotheistic Abrahamic religion, without labeling it as an ethnic religion. [7]

3. The third source (27) describes Druze as Arabs, mentioning: "Druze... Their native language is Arabic, and they are Arabs by culture and tradition," but does not classify the religion as ethnic religion. p.314

4. The fourth source (28) also does not refer to the Druze religion as an ethnic religion.

The term "ethnic-religious" or "ethnic religion" in relation to the Druze does not appear to be supported by the attached sources. It seems that this term was introduced without proper backing from the provided references. I believe it should be remove 2.55.182.110 (talk) 21:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Not to chum the waters but isn't "Arab" a definition for Arabic-speaking communities in the first place? In the 20th century, there were Arab Jews and Christians in north mesopotamia, and in the same areas Jews, Christians, and even Muslims that speak Aramaic who were not arabs. this argument is ridiculous, the only time the druze are not "arabs" is when "druze" is a separate, state-defined category on their identity cards, like in Israel. Ogress 22:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. The concept of a "Druze ethnicity" was created solely in Israel, and it does not exist in Syria, Lebanon, the Golan Heights, Jordan, or among the Druze diaspora. Curiously, only in Israel did the government conclude that Druze are not Arabs, and they continue to promote this idea. Unfortunately, this misleading narrative has gained traction here as well, despite clear evidence from reliable sources that the Druze are, in fact, Arabs. 2.55.182.110 (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The article lacks sources to support the claim that the Druze faith is an "ethnic religion" or that Druzes are an "ethnic religious group". Unlike Jews, Copts, or Yazidis, who view their religions through an ethnic lens, the Druze see their religion purely as a faith. Druze Sheiks do not treat their religion as an ethnicity, unlike Jewish rabbis, for example. The Druze are simply Arabs who practice their religion, much like Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, or Arab Baha'is. It is surprising that this description has persisted for years without editorial correction, despite the absence of evidence supporting the terms "ethnic religion" or "ethnic religious group". This misinformation has even been replicated in other Wikipedia versions and numerous other sites, further spreading the inaccuracy. 2.54.182.81 (talk) 23:04, 28 July 2024 (UTC)