Talk:Elf

Finnish Elves

Someone ought to add a link to the Nisse Wikipedia page. Elves are very important to Finnish lore. In Finnish, they are referred to as Tonttu. More could be added about Finnish elves (see also Mauri Kunnas), but the Nisse page is a good starting point (maybe as a 'see also'?)

97.104.133.89 (talk) 02:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)JustTryingToBeHelpful97.104.133.89 (talk) 02:19, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Finnish traditions are currently covered in Elf#Europe, and the nisse in Elf#Terminology. Any particular changes you'd like to suggest there? Alarichall (talk) 20:28, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

A grim ripoff

This article looks like yet another example of Wiki-style obscurantism. The information appears to derive entirely from Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie, but garbled and hidden behind tons of less important ternary and quaternary sources. Grimm's text is still much better, and facts only briefly mentioned here are better explained there: https://archive.org/details/teutonicmytholog02grim/page/442. --212.186.133.83 (talk) 06:47, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Fairy?

So are they fairies or not? Booger-mike (talk) 01:37, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, since neither of them are real, it's tricky to answer that question! Alarichall (talk) 13:50, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

"Arabian" jinn

@Bloodofox:, if you look at Xoltron's editing history you'll see he has a history of claiming Arabic things are Persian. See especially his edits at One Thousand and One Nights, such as this. Look also at his recent edits at Jinn, such as this. Jinn are from pre-Islamic Arabia, whatever their ultimate origins may be. It seems strange that we shouldn't identify them as Arabian.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:53, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Ermenrich, thank you for clarifying. I've self-reverted my reversion of your edit. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:58, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Etymology

So... Erhm... I don't have the linguistic expertise to confirm this, but I've always been told that the etymology for 'Elf' lies not in the Latin word for 'white' (albus), but the High German word for 'river' (albiz) and that it's association with a certain class of fairies (those associated with rivers, like Neck, kelpies and the like) came about in a similar way to how the word 'Sidhe' refers far more to a class of fairies than to the earthen mounds that the word originally referred to that they were said to dwell in.

I acknowledge that this isn't the strongest of evidence, has elements of OR and may well be wrong, but it would certainly explain far better why there's a distinction made between 'light' and 'dark' elves if it was a reference to white water rivers (fast rivers in the mountains) and black water rivers (swampy, slow moving rivers in the low lands) than if it meant 'the white people' (I can see the Germanic storytellers of old work that one out "Oh, sure, they're the white people, except they're pitch black so we'll just call then 'the dark white people' rather than just 'the black people'...").

If it is wrong, it might be worth adding a little bit to the etymology section about why. Robrecht (talk) 16:06, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen this etymology in a scholarly source (and although it was a long time ago, I did once read a lot of scholarly sources about the etymology of elf), so I'm not sure we'd be able to find a citation for it. Maybe it's a widespread folk etymology? Alarichall (talk) 21:12, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

It seems River in old High German is 'aha' or 'fluz', the modern word being 'fluss' https://glosbe.com/en/goh/river. Do you have a source? 'Albiz' is also the source of the word 'Albus' in Latin. Its a proto Indo European word that branched off. I don't think the claim is that the word comes from the Latin, the Latin is a separate descendant of 'Albiz' that has a similar concept. I think it needs to be considered that in the past the concept of 'whiteness' and was not like we use it today. Its possible that light and dark refers to pale and olive tones. Or the concept of Elves evolved beyond the meaning of the word to take on other characteristics. There is nothing concrete on this matter.2A02:C7D:8059:3400:B9C0:2167:B8B7:D4AC (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Christmas Nisse?

The article gives the impression that the notion of Christmas elves sort of appeared in America out of nowhere. I don't have the expertise to cite specific authorities, but their similarity to Nisse is unmistakable. Given that so much of Santa culture comes from Norway, this is hardly surprising. Isn't it likely that "elf" wasn't used as a translation of "nisse"? Certainly, Santa and his elves aren't the same type, suggesting "elf" was used as a broad term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:1000:1E7:F151:B8A4:10EA:A803 (talk) 21:45, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

See Nisse (folklore)#Modern Nisse. Doug Weller talk 14:09, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Objective?

"From a scientific viewpoint, elves are not considered objectively real"

Ha ha. How is this possible? 188.172.108.164 (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

matt white?

What is this? No explanation is given and nothing exists online. 188.172.108.164 (talk) 21:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

If by "matt" it is meant "matte", not only someone should fix the spelling, but remove it altogether. Latin cognates to a word and concept from Germanic people likely have little relevance. Alpharts Tod (talk) 16:49, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Matt White is a novelist who wrote Elvish Capers and The Road to Fairyland.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd never heard of Matt White! I looked up 'matt' in the Oxford English Dictionary, and 'matt', not 'matte', is the spelling given there. Comparing the meaning of a Germanic word with its Indo-European cognates is the main way in which we can guess what it might have meant in early stages of its history, so comparing the meanings of Germanic words with (in this case) their Latin and Celtic cognates is a really important method. Alarichall (talk) 09:21, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Real Meaning?

The article is separate from the Elves in video game and movies article, but it is more connected to that than the real meaning of elves. The article simply discussed what Elfs are since the Christianisation of Europe, but barely touches on the origins of Elf. It mentions that the word is used as a root to many ancient German Warrior names, and thus, likely had a positive, or even divine meaning. But the article does not go into much else detail on the subject. 188.172.108.164 (talk) 07:18, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this enquiry! The reason why the article doesn't go into much detail about pre-Christian meanings of elf is that pre-Christian speakers of Germanic languages hardly ever wrote anything, so we have no direct evidence for what the word elf meant to them. In my view, the article says as much as can plausibly be known on the subject. Alarichall (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. I think there could be more focus on Alfheim, Ydalir, Ullr, Freyr, and the like. As these are probably our oldest clues. I think my main issue is, we have Elves in fiction and video games, Elves in modern tradition, but but the origin of Elves. I understand little is known from 2,000-3,000 years ago, but there could be more here. Alpharts Tod (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Good point. In fact, we should have a whole tripartite article on the Etymology of elves.com.au.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

where there actually elves before noas ark

Suggest what could this mean 2A00:23C4:706:2600:1D3:6E84:72BA:4F77 (talk) 18:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Borneo?

"Orang Bunian" is not an Elf but rather mysterious characters from Southeast Asia. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 16:37, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I think many people view them as Elves, especially in Malaysia I would ask how they are different from elves? Tepkunset (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I would think the more pertinent question is why some people in Malaysia view Bunians as Elves? 2001:8003:70F5:2400:F855:A0F9:EF82:E1B4 (talk) 04:42, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Jinn?

Jinn, have a rank as warrior and magical beings originating in the "1001 Nights". 137.59.221.36 (talk) 16:41, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

No doubt, but they aren't Elves. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:00, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Elf personality

The fear parents have of Elf is that they could be naughty, attraction to innocence and possibly feminine, they possess Male juvenile behaviour, very independent and fearless, possibly warlike in attitude. 137.59.221.36 (talk) 16:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

"humans and gods"

I think whoever wrote the sentence "There does not seem to have been any clear-cut distinction between humans and gods" right after a sacrifice to the elves has been mentioned, made a mistake he wasnt aware of and he meant "between elves and gods", hence the aforementioned alfablót (elf sacrifice) 2800:200:F270:24C7:10C8:841E:ADD9:8253 (talk) 17:08, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Gothic form

The article currently states: Personal names provide the only evidence for elf in Gothic, which must have had the word *albs (plural *albeis). The most famous name of this kind is Alboin. This appears like it may be unsourced. Alboin is a Langobardic name, and doesn't Germanic *b generally become f in that position in Gothic? Burgundian (also likely East Germanic) appears to have *alfs according to Orel.--Ermenrich (talk) 01:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Hey ho Ermenrich! I cited Alboin and gave the form *albs in my 2007 elves book, which I probably intended to cite when I revised this article years ago. But it is perfectly possible that I made a mistake in that book: I hadn't (and haven't) studied Gothic properly and I can't remember what my source was. I'll try to find a better source but if you get to one first then feel free to fix it! Alarichall (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Etymology not supported by sources

This article puts a lot of emphasis on "elf" being connection with the Latin "albh-" (which is the root of "albino"), and its primary source is the 2003 book "A handbook of Germanic etymology" by Orel. However this book does not support this claim. (If anyone has a copy, simply turn to page 13 to see for yourself, or check it out at Archive.org.)

It states:

albaz sb.m.: Burg *alfs 'elf', ON alfr 'nightmare, elf', OE aelf 'elf, genius, incubus', MLG alf 'evil spirit', OHG alb id. Of uncertain origin. KUHN KZ IV 110 (to Skt rbhú- 'clever, skilful'); WADSTEIN Festschr. Bugge 152-155 (to *albh- white'); TORP-FALK 21; SAUS-SURE apud MASTRELLI StG XIII 5-13 (to the name of the Alps); HOLTHAUSEN AEEW 186; POKORNY I 30; VRIES ANEW 5-6; KÖBLER 708; KLUGE-SEEBOLD 24-25.

For albiz it states a primary link with 'deep river-bed' and 'river-bed'. It makes a passing reference to a connection with the Latin 'albus' and 'white', but then states "this etymology is not very reliable" due to the stronger connection with the Swedish 'alv' and 'elve', meaning 'river-bed').

Looking through this talk page, this odd emphasis on "white" as part of its etymology has been brought up before, as it is not generally accepted elsewhere.

For some reason this article seems intent on linking "elf" primarily with "whiteness" and "cleverness" and nothing else, but it is not supported by the current sources, and is actually contradicted by them.

WikiMane11 (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

In terms of this history of the Wikipedia article itself, the main reference for the paragraph you're talking about is actually Hall 2007, 54–55 (which, for full disclosure, is a book by me). As the phrasing of the paragraph has changed, it has come to look like that reference only applies to a sentence where I'm named specifically. I've added the same reference at the end of a couple of the other sentences in that paragraph just to make it clear that the paragraph all based on that book, not Orel.

Orel's book does cover the *albh etymology (he explicitly says that Wadstein argues for it, and it's also in Vries ANEW at least). It's a shame that Guus Kroonen (2013), Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic, Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary Series 11 (Leiden: Brill), doesn't include the elf-word — a weird omission.

But maybe the article should follow Orel's lead and say that the etymology is uncertain rather than 'generally agreed'?

I believe that Riccardo Ginevra's paper 'Old Norse Elves from a linguistic and comparative perspective', of which you can read a conference abstract here, will be published in the next couple of years, and, regardless of what new arguments he may make about the etymology, hopefully he will have a thorough summary of past research on the question that we will be able to cite.

I don't that anyone thinks that the English word 'elf' has anything to do with the etymon of Swedish 'alv'. That similarity is just thought to be a coincidence. Alarichall (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

GA concerns

I am concerned that this article no longer meets the good article criteria, as lots of information seems to have been added to the lead since its 2017 promotion. This information should be checked to ensure it is sourced and verified, and much of it should be moved to the article body. Ther are also some uncited statements in the article. Is anyone interested in resolving this concern, or should this go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 21:13, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I'll sort it out, if nobody else wants to do the honours. Additions since GAN are not an issue as such, though we may see the need to remove anything inapposite; but lack of citations obviously is. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Alarichall, I see you took this through GAN back in 2017, and have responded to comments since then. If you intend to answer Z1720's GA concerns now, good luck; I'm happy to lend a hand. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)